Granshaw origins

[czarnolas]

I hope this is the right forum for this post - I had it in Beginners, and decided it might not be the right place.

Briefly, I am trying to achieve two things; tracing the Granshaw line (much as everyone else is doing with their chosen families), but also to determine the origins of the Granshaw name, there being some evidence that at least some Granshaws were Huguenots who came from France at the time of the French revolution.

My last post on the Beginners page was;

Well, this particular line of investigation starts with one of my great-grandfathers; James George Granshaw. He was born on 21st August 1873 to George Granshaw and Maria Granshaw (nee Buck), in Bethnal Green, London (Middlesex). James' birth certificate reveals a certain confusion over the spelling of Granshaw as in three places it was written 'Grandshaw' only to be crossed out and rewritten without the 'd'.

I also found James' parents' marriage certificate (showing that they married on 17th November 1872, also in Bethnal Green). This showed George Granshaw's father as 'James Grandshaw' (note 'd' in Grandshaw).

This is where the trail gets confused/confusing. I haven't been able to find a record of George Granshaw's birth in order to be able to trace which James (i.e. d.o.b) is his father, and hence follow the line. There is one possible George Grandshaw showing in the 1871 census index with a calculated d.o.b. of about 1851. The problem with this is that the 1881 census (which shows George Granshaw, Maria, and James) suggests a birth year of about 1853. To confuse matters further, George's marriage certificate gives an age of 20 in 1872, suggesting a birth year of 1852. Although some of these disparities can be explained through the timing of the census (etc), not all can. I suppose it is possible that he didn't know how old he was and just guessed each time...

The 1861 census shows a James Granshaw married to Sophia, and with several children, one named George, but he was aged 6 at the time, suggesting a birth year of 1855! There are no other references (that I can find) of a suitable combination of names.

There are two or three possible James Granshaws as candidates for George's father, but unless I can get some documentary evidence to link one to George, then I don't see the justification of pursuing any of them.

The one remaining line of enquiry (which I will explore as soon as I can get back to the Library) is the George Grandshaw showing on the 1871 census. If he is the same George who married Maria and became James George's father, then he does not appear to be in a household with a father named James Granshaw (as no none shows in the census index). Possibly James had dies by this time. My only hope is that either his mother or siblings will tie him back to a James Granshaw on an earlier census.

Gaie - the reference you found to a Granshaw in the 17th century seems even stranger given that this does not seem to have been followed by a slow but steady increase in Granshaws over the succeeding 150 years. Perhaps he was a lone member of the family in this country who either died without children, or returned to whichever country he'd come from. What is really strange though is that if the name Granshaw did come here from another country (rather than being adopted here by animigrant family - unlikely given that it appears aparently independently 150 years apart), then where did it come from? Granshaw sounds English - if anything! If it had originated in this country though, then why aren't there more Granshaws (it's a fairly uncommon name, even now)?

The suggestion (despite any other evidence) that the Granshaws were Huguenots is supported by the number of silk weavers (including severl I've identified) of that name.

Any help or suggestions gratefully received. Thanks.

[dawnsh]

Just a brief comment...

Although civil registration started in 1837, it wasn't compulsory to register births until the mid-1870's so there may not be a birth cert to find.

Dawn

[Gaie]

Hi Czarnolas 

Well, I've been running around after these Granshaws/Grandshaws/Grundshaws all day!!!

Been through 1841, 1851, 1861, 1871 censuses, passenger lists to Australia, births, marriages, deaths - I may know nearly as much about the Granshaws as you do by now 

I had found a few birth entries for a George.  However, it wasn't until I looked at the 1881 census (why leave it till last, you ask  )  and noticed that George gives his place of birth as HOLBORN!!!

Poss birth cert:
Jun Qtr 1854 Holborn Vol 1b Page 418
George GRANDSHAW

The 1850 bc for a George, Sep Qtr 1850 Bethnal Green Vol 2 Page 75 is possibly the son of George Granshaw and Sarah Short, poss m Elizabeth Martin Sep Qtr 1871 St George East, and definitely emigrated to Australia on the Silver Eagle, May 1872, with his wife, to his uncle's unknown address; parents named in appropriate column.

The 1856 bc for a George, Mar Qtr 1856 Bethnal Green Vol 1c Page 299 is possibly the son of  Thomas Edward Granshaw and Sarah Butler; according to the IGI he was born 11/2/1856, Bethnal Green, but this is an LDS member's submitted entry, so needs checking.

Hope that helps.
Kind regards
Gaie

[czarnolas]

dawnsh - thanks for the reminder - yes, I did realise that registration wasn't compulsory at that point. The problem for me (being a comparitive novice at this) is how to bridge the resulting gaps...

Gaie - thanks for all your hard work (seeing the time of your post, I feel more than a little guilty!).

Based on the 1881 census, George would have had a d.o.b. of about 1853
Based on George's marriage certificate, he would have had a d.o.b. of about 1852

Based on date of birth alone, the closest match would seem to be the Grorge Grandshaw born June Qtr 1854. What worries me about this is the disparity over dates though (and I am taking into account the dates of events within each year) - can you or anyone else suggest why there should be such variations in calculated birth years? Even limiting this to the 1881 census and the marriage certificate, this suggests that either George didn't know his age (and guessed inconsistently), or the person writing in the register got it wrong.

I'm making the assumption that the two Georges are in fact the same person - they both married someone named Maria, and the marriage dates are consistent.

The marriage certificate I have must be for the right person (as James George's mother is shown as Maria nee Buck, and George's marriage certificate shows his wife as being Maria nee Buck). It shows George's father as James. This would seem to discount your second two Georges (1850 and 1856).

How else can one confirm that a person shown in one place (e.g. the 1881 census, or James George Granshaw's birth certificate) is the same as that shown elsewhere if the dates of birth are not the same? If George appeared on an earlier (pre 1881) census in a family group (i.e. before he was married) then this would provide a link with his parents, but as I can't find a George with the right d.o.b., and in any case his d.o.b isn't even shown consistently in places where I'm sure I have the right person, this seems to take away one of the main tools for confirming identity!

Do you have access to the detail of the 1871 census? There is a George Grandshaw listed with a calculated d.o.b of 1851 (which would be more or less consistent with the Marriage certificate I have, though not with the 1881 census). I haven't been able to check the census detail yet, but if the 1871 census shows any other family members (siblings perhaps) then it might be possible to tie them back to an earlier James Granshaw.

Sorry for this long and rather rambling explanation.

Thanks again for your help.

[Gaie]

Hi

Don't feel guilty, some postings just grab our attention 

No, that George bc1851 is in the household of George & Sarah; George Sr was a paper hanger, George Jr a painter.  This is probably the George who went to Australia, mentioned in my previous reply.

Now, the Granshaw family groups do seem to fade in and out of census returns - there is a group in the 1841, parents Isaac & Mary bc 1796 and various children, living in Reading, silk weavers, apparently not born in county, born in foreign parts.  I can't find them in the 1851, but can find their son Isaac, his wife and family; they reappear in 1861, bc1791 in Spitalfields, with the youngest child, all born Middlesex!  This is just one example.

Either some of the family groups are badly transcribed, or they could have spent some time abroad - for example, 1861 Daniel b 1812 Oxon, wife Ellen b 1817 Cork, son Samuel b 1847 Halifax, Nova Scotia.

Yes, I'd discounted the second two Georges for the reasons given.  As that leaves one George born Holborn according to census 1881, and one birth certificate for a George born in Holborn in about the right time (only one or two years out, not uncommon in any of our trees), then it seems very likely that this is the birth certificate to go for.  It's entirely up to you.

And of course there is that family group of James and Sophia, with children Sophia, Elizabeth, Mary Ann, James, Thomas and George through 1841-1861 censuses.... or George's father might have been another James....  So you need a bc to confirm your George's mother.

What was James's occupation on the marriage certificate of George and Maria?

Kind regards
Gaie

[czarnolas]

Gaie

The marriage certificate of George and Maria shows James Grandshaw (George's father) as a Fringe Manufacturer (quite possibly associated with silk weaving), like his son George and daughter-in-law Maria. Unless I'm mistaken, the James Granshaw you've turned up in the 1841 (and other) census was a 'weaver of silk'.

[Incidentally, it's this preponderance of silk weavers amongst the Granshaws that lends weight to the suggestion of Huguenot ancestry.]

This James Granshaw of the earlier census had a son George (as you mention) whose calculated d.o.b would have been 1855. Although this is within spitting distance of the dates already discussed, it doesn't provide any certainty as to that James being 'my' George's father.

Your suggestion that they might have spent time out of the country is an interesting one. Unfortunately (although it is tempting to start to theorise about links with whichever country the Granshaws originated from), I'm not sure how I could pursue that line of enquiry further. I suppose that as that Jame seems to disappear from the census record, it is possible that rather than having died, he might just have emigrated?

Anyway, thanks again for your help, thoughts and inspiration...

[czarnolas]

Incidentally Gaie, you say that Isaac and Mary were apparently not born in the UK - how can you tell, and do the records suggest where they might have been born?

[Gaie]

I guess the silk weaving or fringe trades had gone pear-shaped by 1881, as George became a meat salesman!

I can see extracted birth and christening records for James & Sophia's children Sophia, Elizabeth,  and Mary Ann and a submitted entry for James, but nothing for their George.  Do you have these?

The 1841 census has two columns on the right hand side.

Main heading: Where born
left column: Whether born in same county
right column: Whether born in Scotland, Ireland or Foreign Parts (ie everywhere else!)

They were filled in thus (ideal world!):

born in same county as residence: 'y' in left hand column
not born in same county as residence but born England & Wales: 'n' in left hand column
born in Scotland: 'n' in left hand column 'S' in right hand column
born in Ireland: 'n' in left hand column 'I' in right hand column
born in Foreign Parts: 'n' in left hand column 'fp' in right hand column

Isaac, Mary and children all had n, fp.
No other info given.

I was hoping to see if George again puts Holborn as his pob in 1891 but I can't find them 

Kind regards
Gaie

[czarnolas]

Gaie

No, I don't have any christening records.

As to Isaac, it's just possible he and Mary his wife are the ones referred to in the information provided to me by the Huguenot society. They were cited as evidence of Huguenot ancestry by a woman applying for alms. It's not completely clear, but see below;


FORECAST, Mary Ann, née Granshaw. Inmate.

e. July 3O, 1921. d. Oct.28, 1928; bur. Manor Park Cemetery "by her Son".

P_: July 6, 1921, regd. July 30, Class C, elected same day. (a) i. Mary Ann Forecast,186, Old Ford Road, par. St. James the Less, Bethnal Green, daughter of Isaac Granshaw, 2 East Street, Bethnal Green and Mary Ann Granshaw,, Medway Road, Bow; ii. Jan.24, 1839, 21 Cross Street, Bethnal Green; iii. On Father & Mother's side who were descended from French Protestant Refugees. The Petitioner's father was the son of Isaac Granshaw, who took refuge in this country at the time of the French Revolution. The Petitioner remembers hearing her Mother say that she (thé Mother) was of French descent. Her sister Elizabeth Granshaw was brought up in the French School in Shaftesbury Avenue; iv. before her marriage a silk weaver, and after her husband's death in April 1913 supplemented the Government Old Age Pension by working as a charwoman until she became too old to do so; v. indigent old age; vi. + The Mark of Mary Ann Forecast; vi. A.W. Waugh. (b) ii. J.P.R. Ree Jones, St. James the Less Vicarage.

Enclosures [all affected by mildew and some almost illegible] :

(l) Certified extract July 5, 1921, Register of Births, Green sub-district, Bethnal Green "Born 24th January 1839, N°.2i Cross Street, Mary Ann [of] Isaac Granshaw, Mary Ann Granshaw, formerly Meek, Weaver"; (2) Marriage certificate, St. Philip' s Church, Bethnal Green, 185-?, writing almost entirely illegible; (3) Memorial card "James Forecast who departed this life 13th April 1913 aged 75 years. Interred at Manor Park Cemetery"; (4) Certified extract Sept.lO, 18O9, Regître des Baptêmes de l'Eglise Françoise de Londre dans

Thread-needle-street "A été baptisée Susanne fille de Jaques Blariaut et de Louise Trifé sa femme. . .Parrain Hubert Parent. . .Marraine Susanne Parent"; (5) Marriage certificate, St. George the Martyr, Southwark, l8l5(?) "Isaac Grandshaw of this Parish Bachelor and Mary Bissey of this Parish Spinster"; (6) Certified extract May 13, 1844, St. Leonard Shoreditch, Marriage register, Dec. 24, l835(?) "Isaac Granshaw, Bachelor, Weaver, Essex St., (father) Isaac Granshaw, Weaver, [and] Mary Ann Meek, Spinster, Weaver, Essex St., (father) Sam-'-. Meek, Weaver".


It may be that this explains the foreign birth - i.e. French...?