Author Topic: Copyright - where are we?  (Read 16588 times)

Offline suttontrust

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Copyright - where are we?
« on: Thursday 30 October 08 22:27 GMT (UK) »
I'd like to know how other Rootschatters feel about the rather messy situation we're in over copyright.
Before the internet, local groups produced editions of records for sale, on microfiche or in booklet form.  The only other source was the record office, national or local.  With the internet, we saw records put online, freely or for a fee.  Traditional publishers naturally don't want to see their work put online for nothing, and the paid-for websites don't like (but can't stop) users passing on information for free.  I used to transcribe for FreeBMD but stopped when I saw the founder of the site saying that doing look-ups for people from Ancestry records was theft. 
There are so many records online now, and many people who transcribe original records happily put them online for others to use.  But sites like Rootschat have a dilemma.  I own 6 booklets of early Hull directories.  These are not available online, but are in the local library.  I offered look-ups on the East Yorkshire board.  Now I've been told that, for copyright reasons, this offer has been taken off.  On the same board are other offers of look-ups of records and I can't immediately see how they differ from my offer.  I could offer to look up the same directories by going to the library, and presumably this would not breach copyright.
This is not a criticism.  I'm just confused.  What is the experience and opinion of other Rootschatters?  ???
Godden in East Sussex, mainly Hastings area.
Richards in Lea, Gloucestershire, then London.
Williamson in Leith, Vickers in Nottingham.
Webb in Bildeston and Colchester.
Wesbroom in Kirby le Soken.
Ellington in Harwich.
Park, Palmer, Segar and Peartree in Kersey.

Offline GrahamH

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Re: Copyright - where are we?
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 30 October 08 23:10 GMT (UK) »
Just to try to keep it simple, copyright exists in items published by companies (as opposed to books written by individuals) for 70 years from the year of publication. This applies to things like original directories and maps plus facsimile copies of them on paper, microfiche, CD etc. Indeed, it is a breach of copyright for someone to produce a facsimile within the 70 year period without the pemission of the copyright owner.

The extent to which a copyright owner might wish to protect its rights will vary. The owner of a work published (say) 60 years ago might waive the rights if approached by a company wishing to publish a facsimile on CD because there is no ongoing commercial value in the original work.

On the other hand, the publisher of a facsimile will probably be keen to protect its rights as it is only by making profit from sales that the business can carry on purchasing other old books and maps in order to produce copies of those - for the benefit of researchers as well as the business of the company.

Providing free look-ups from items which are still on sale means that the recipients of the information are less likely to purchase their own copies - so potential sales/profit are lost and the companies ability to carry on its business as mentioned above is damaged. That is why data CDs (for instance) normally carry a notice prohibiting publication of the contents without the consent of the copyright owner.

Anyone (as in the original post on this thread) owning books still in copyright (or having access to them in a library) can contact the copyright owner to ask for permission to undertake lookups. If permission is granted, all well and good (and that could be made plain in a lookup offer). However, doing so without permission is breach of copyright.

Transcribing information for one's own private research from books (whether the copies are owned or accessed in a library) is not the same as offering to transcribe the information on behalf of someone else and then pass it on (i.e. publish it) to that person.

Graham

Offline CaroleW

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Re: Copyright - where are we?
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 30 October 08 23:20 GMT (UK) »
Quote
I used to transcribe for FreeBMD but stopped when I saw the founder of the site saying that doing look-ups for people from Ancestry records was theft.  


Was he referring to census lookups by Ancestry subscribers on behalf of others rather than voluntry BMD transcriptions?

Copyright rules are a minefield and I don't really want to get into the realms of them.  However - I have often wondered about the census and full GRO lookup situation.

Ancestry pay for the census transcriptions and images and maintenance of the site etc etc

They recoup this outlay via Ancestry subs - and presumably make a profit as well

Subscribers then come along and basically "copy" that info and pass it on to non-subscribers who therefore benefit at no cost

Ancestry could well argue that by passing on info in that way - they are losing revenue.  

This is an extract from their Terms and Conditions which I personally don't find particularly helpful as far as clarity goes

Quote
Limited Use LICENCE
You are licensed to use the Content only for personal or professional family history research, and may download Content only as search results relevant to that research. The download of the whole or material parts of any work or database is prohibited. Resale of a work or database or portion thereof, except as specific results relevant to specific research for an individual, is prohibited. Online or other republication of Content is prohibited except as unique data elements that are part of a unique family history or genealogy.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Carlin (Ireland & Liverpool) Doughty & Wright (Liverpool) Dick & Park (Scotland & Liverpool)

Offline suttontrust

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Re: Copyright - where are we?
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 30 October 08 23:35 GMT (UK) »
Some interesting points here.  I think there must be a distinction between re-publishing the information in a published work and consulting that work and passing on information in it to someone else.  The copyright laws are to prevent the first of these; but they are being used to prevent the second, which has only become an issue since the internet.  There was formally nothing to stop me telling a friend about an entry in one of the directories I own.  Internet message boards have broadened the definition of "friend". 
As for the FreeBMD point; a pay site like Ancestry naturally wants to encourage as many people as possible to pay for the information they offer.  The difficulty for FreeBMD was that they funded their free site by selling the records to Ancestry.  I'm sure it was that relationship which caused the founder of FreeBMD to argue in such pejorative terms against people who, having paid to view a record on Ancestry, passed the information on to someone else for nothing.
I think the whole copyright situation needs to be revised in light of new ways of distributing information.
Godden in East Sussex, mainly Hastings area.
Richards in Lea, Gloucestershire, then London.
Williamson in Leith, Vickers in Nottingham.
Webb in Bildeston and Colchester.
Wesbroom in Kirby le Soken.
Ellington in Harwich.
Park, Palmer, Segar and Peartree in Kersey.


Online Erato

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Re: Copyright - where are we?
« Reply #4 on: Friday 31 October 08 00:19 GMT (UK) »
I agree with you, Suttontrust.  Some clarification of RootsChat policy is needed.  In a recent thread:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,325335.30.html

Berlin-Bob said, "... and get on with what we are really here for   

So,

ready  ...........

.......................... steady ...................

......................................................................   Look Ups !!!!"


It's hard to reconcile this with the repeated stifling of lookup offers.
Wiltshire:  Banks, Taylor
Somerset:  Duddridge, Richards, Barnard, Pillinger
Gloucestershire:  Barnard, Marsh, Crossman
Bristol:  Banks, Duddridge, Barnard
Down:  Ennis, McGee
Wicklow:  Chapman, Pepper
Wigtownshire:  Logan, Conning
Wisconsin:  Ennis, Chapman, Logan, Ware
Maine:  Ware, Mitchell, Tarr, Davis

Offline andycand

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Re: Copyright - where are we?
« Reply #5 on: Friday 31 October 08 02:05 GMT (UK) »
Hi

There was a message not long ago from a chatter who was also a publisher of cd's and their comment (i can't find the exact words) was along the lines of that they didn't mind the occasional look up being done but not someone advertising lookups. As regards to subscription sites I recall reading in a different forum some years ago that a subscription site threatened to cancel the subscription of one of their subscribers for providing lookups.

I think Rootschat, quite rightly, errs on the side of caution with regards to copyright as the owners, as well as the chatter, could end up in hot water for breaches. 

Perhaps a person offering look ups should clarify the exact source of their information as this may help to decide whether its potentially a problem.

As for the FreeBMD/Ancestry point, whilst Ancestry is a pay site you don't have to be a subscriber to access the FreeBMD records on Ancestry, just registered. You do have to be a subscriber to access the full GRO index though. One advantage with using Ancestry to seach FreeBMD is that you can use wildcards in your search

Andy









Offline GrahamH

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Re: Copyright - where are we?
« Reply #6 on: Friday 31 October 08 06:39 GMT (UK) »
Hi

There was a message not long ago from a chatter who was also a publisher of cd's and their comment (i can't find the exact words) was along the lines of that they didn't mind the occasional look up being done but not someone advertising lookups.
That would probably be me onThis Thread.
A similar post on another forum Here was described by another member as "That seems a very logical, sensible approach".

Some interesting points here.  I think there must be a distinction between re-publishing the information in a published work and consulting that work and passing on information in it to someone else.  The copyright laws are to prevent the first of these; but they are being used to prevent the second, which has only become an issue since the internet. 
Not the case I'm afraid. The issue has probably come more to the fore because of the ease of copying information published in electronic form generally (as opposed to simply on the Internet) though the volume of look-up offers and requests has obviously increased as people have been able to communicate more easily using the Internet.

Books have, for many years, carried statements prohibiting sale etc in other than their original form of binding/covering. The copyright statement which we (and other publishers) include on our CD wraps (visible before purchase) has just the same aim of protecting our business.

Graham

Offline Aulus

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Re: Copyright - where are we?
« Reply #7 on: Friday 31 October 08 12:37 GMT (UK) »
In a fairly desperate search for one branch of my family I recently purchased a whole pile of booklets of parish register transcriptions published by a Family History Society somewhere in an East Anglian county that isn't Norfolk  ;)

It would be nice to offer lookups from those, but on the one hand that would clearly breach copyright and on the other hand it would deprive that society of a modest income stream.  I think if I saw someone requesting a lookup for one of the parishes that are covered, I would try to remember to point that person to where s/he can buy the transcripts and stifle the immediate feeling of being really happy that I can help someone.  Anyway, having the whole parish register is often much more useful than just having details of the one baptism, marriage or burial.

I think I would feel slightly different if it were a digital copy of the original register or an out-of-copyright transcription.  But only slightly.  My understanding is that the publisher of the CD (or fiche, but they're usually CDs these days) has copyright in the format, but he surely can't have copyright in the content.  Otherwise we could all go and scan in copies of out-of-copyright editions of Jane Austen, Dickens, Shakespeare etc and then claim that we owned the copyright on the texts.  But there's the fair play argument too, which is important.  Nobody is only ever going to go to the effort of producing PR or other transcripts in a digital medium if they're only ever going to sell one copy, and the buyer of that one copy then redistibutes the information contained in it.  As genealogists - amateur or professional - we need to keep buying these transcripts in sufficient numbers that makes it worthwhile for the companies to produce them.

And I think that argument extends to the on-line databases managed by the likes of ancestry and findmypast.  Like it or not, they're businesses, and they need to make a profit.  Where would we be if these companies had never made available the censuses and other record sets?  We might moan and get thoroughly irritated by the filthy lucre side of these businesses, but it's the filthy lucre that makes them exist at all.

Rootschat's view on the copyright of the Ancestry/FindMyPast etc census databases seems to me to be a good balance, and one that can apply to things other than censuses too: the transcript that forms the database you search is copyright; but if you transcribe it from the original image, then that transcription is your copyright and if you choose to make it available on rootschat, that's up to you.  The images are copyright too (?TNA used under licence by Ancestry/FindMyPast/etc?), which is why we can only post small sections if asking for help reading what it says, or otherwise illustrating a point.

I read recently here on rootschat a comment that those who have paid for access to the various databases should be cautious about providing information from them for all and every look-up request.  I don't think I've expressed that very well, but the original poster's meaning was that there are some people who use rootschat (and probably other fora) as a way of avoiding paying any subscriptions.  While it's nice to help, I think that's right.  Obviously, it's a completely different matter providing another set of eyes to help someone who's clearly looked themselves.

One thing I've not quite ever understood is how places like records office and TNA can seek to control publication of images (e.g. digital photos) made by readers/visitors of documents that might be several hundred years old.  The form you sign for permission to photograph documents in records offices has always in my experience included something about you not being able to use the images in a publication without permission.  That can't be copyright as the documents must be out of copyright, so it must be something else.  Maybe it's something do with reproducing something that belongs to someone else? ???
Lancashire: Stevenson, Wild, Holden, Jepson
Worcs/Staffs: Steventon, Smith
East London & Suffolk: Guest, Scrutton
East London: Palfreman (prev Tyneside), Bissell, Collis, Dearlove, Ettridge
Herts: Camac, Collis, Mason, Dorrington, Siggens
Marylebone & Sussex: Cole
London & Huntingdonshire: Freeman
Bowland: Marsden, Noble
Shropshire: Guest

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline suttontrust

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Re: Copyright - where are we?
« Reply #8 on: Friday 31 October 08 19:17 GMT (UK) »
Where the argument falls down for me is that we are dealing not with original creative work but, nearly always in family history, with single items of information - the entry in the register, the census record.  Once those bits of information have been published they are accessible to anyone.  For instance, many of us assemble information from a variety of sources to compile a history, whether of a person, a family or a place.  If we're writing a narrative we credit the sources.  The owners of the records may well say you can use them for non-commercial purposes providing you acknowledge the source.  If you intend to sell your work on, you will have to pay for the records.  We don't even do that with BMD and census information, we just use it, however we acquired it.
I'm not making much sense!  But I maintain that the current copyright laws are not adequate for the internet age. 
Godden in East Sussex, mainly Hastings area.
Richards in Lea, Gloucestershire, then London.
Williamson in Leith, Vickers in Nottingham.
Webb in Bildeston and Colchester.
Wesbroom in Kirby le Soken.
Ellington in Harwich.
Park, Palmer, Segar and Peartree in Kersey.