Copyright - where are we?

[GeoffE]

FreeBMD says  (I have copied and pasted this!)

1. FreeBMD is provided free of charge for personal research purposes only.
2. Access to the data held by FreeBMD is only permitted manually via the search page. The use of front end programs or sites to enter search parameters is strictly forbidden
3. Data extracted from FreeBMD must not be reproduced in any form.

[MKG]

... and there lies precisely what we've all been discussing. The FreeBMD prohibition is on reproduction, not usage. It means that you cannot copy and paste. However, a prohibition on the use of the data would obviously render FreeBMD a futile exercise in itself. FreeBMD does not OWN the data in the first place, but they don't want anyone to be able simply to copy out huge chunks of the processed indices, which ARE their property.

If it was a total prohibition, then merely adding information from FreeBMD to your family tree implies reproduction and, therefore, a copyright breach. But this is the raison d'etre of BMD in the first place. If it was a total prohibition, passing on your family information derived from FreeBMD to another member of your family (legally a totally different party) implies publication, another copyright breach.

Obviously, totally ridiculous.

Protection from data pirates is one thing - and to be supported and applauded. Blocking the use of data against the very philosophy behind providing that same data is silly, and the copyright laws were never meant to do this (and, in fact, don't do this).

There has to be an application of common sense here.

Mike

[GrahamH]

FreeBMD says  (I have copied and pasted this!)

1. FreeBMD is provided free of charge for personal research purposes only.
2. Access to the data held by FreeBMD is only permitted manually via the search page. The use of front end programs or sites to enter search parameters is strictly forbidden
3. Data extracted from FreeBMD must not be reproduced in any form.

The National Burial Index is also copyrighted and it is not allowed to be used for "lookups" and / or cut and paste,  in fact they did take it up with the FFHS about groups within the Family History Societies  doing lookups and posting.

We were all told quite clearly and categorically that we were not allowed to this by the FFHS and we have complied with that ruling.

Sorry Graham but you are wrong.
The LDS website contains the following-
(snip)

Thanks for putting me straight re these sites - a case of me not checking properly - I've slapped my own wrist 

Yet more reason to refrain from posting unless one knows that one has the right to post the information concerned.

Not that I would have done any cutting & pasting anyway - if I had been inclined to answer a query I should have directed the enquirer to the sites themselves 

Graham

[suttontrust]

"Data extracted from FreeBMD must not be reproduced in any form."  How bizarre.  All those family trees online or in people's possession that were compiled using data from FreeBMD (as well as other sources) - illegal.  But "FreeBMD is --- for personal research purposes only" - that makes sense.  Unless, of course, you are a professional genealogist, or one of those people researching for programmes and articles on celebs.  

We are no nearer to resolving this.  some instances:

• Some time ago I bought a set of microfiches from a LH society in hopes of finding some answers.  I didn't find them.  I now own these microfiches and could presumably sell them if I wanted to.  How about if I offered them for free here?
  I did a one-name study on a particularly unusual surname, and culled data from every available source (not including purchased disks).  I organised it into a database which is embedded in a website.  Have I done anything wrong?

Naturally, people want to protect work which has cost them time, effort and money.  But pay-per-view thrives because people want to avoid spending money uselessly.  A few more years and some relevant court cases will be needed before we can sort this out.

[JenB]

Digressing from the topic under discussion.....but since Graham mentioned it

if I had been inclined to answer a query I should have directed the enquirer to the sites themselves 

It does beg the question though as to why anyone should be so bone idle to ask for look-ups on Rootschat rather than to look on the free sites themselves.

Some of us attempt to direct people towards such free sites as are available in the hope that they will do look-ups for themselves. As suggested on another thread

I do tend to try to give how to suggestions - I'm sure you know the old adage about give a chap a fish you feed the chap for a day but teach a chap how to fish you feed the chap for a lifetime   

However, such 'how to' attempts meet with limited success.

[Dancing Master]

Guy  no need to slap your wrist  not  matter of putting you right, you have enlightened  people on this subject in many many ways and nothing I said was personal to anyone.

I only knew about the NBI because the group I belonged to got descended on because some members did not know the copyright restrictions.  We all know better now though.

[Gadget]

It does beg the question though as to why anyone should be so bone idle to ask for look-ups on Rootschat rather than to look on the free sites themselves.

Some of us attempt to direct people towards such free sites as are available in the hope that they will do look-ups for themselves. As suggested on another thread

I do tend to try to give how to suggestions - I'm sure you know the old adage about give a chap a fish you feed the chap for a day but teach a chap how to fish you feed the chap for a lifetime   

However, such 'how to' attempts meet with limited success.

And this is the real problem, isn't it?

Some people ask for look ups because they can't afford to subscribe to the online sites, have a dispersed family and can't possibly purchase every CD for every parish where their ancestors lived, etc.  or don't know the sources (free or otherwise). 

Maybe  the old way - getting an understanding of how to do family history - using the LDS FHS centres (ordering in the films), records offices, local and national archives and a bit of lateral thinking might be the best way forward. It's maybe got too easy because of people like us.


Gadget

[GrahamH]

Guy  no need to slap your wrist  not  matter of putting you right, you have enlightened  people on this subject in many many ways and nothing I said was personal to anyone.

I only knew about the NBI because the group I belonged to got descended on because some members did not know the copyright restrictions.  We all know better now though.

That's fine, not taken personally - though I don't know about calling me Guy instead of Graham though 

We might both have long hair but he's older than I am 

Graham

[GrahamH]

It does beg the question though as to why anyone should be so bone idle to ask for look-ups on Rootschat rather than to look on the free sites themselves.

Some of us attempt to direct people towards such free sites as are available in the hope that they will do look-ups for themselves. As suggested on another thread

I do tend to try to give how to suggestions - I'm sure you know the old adage about give a chap a fish you feed the chap for a day but teach a chap how to fish you feed the chap for a lifetime   

However, such 'how to' attempts meet with limited success.

And this is the real problem, isn't it?

Some people ask for look ups because they can't afford to subscribe to the online sites, have a dispersed family and can't possibly purchase every CD for every parish where their ancestors lived, etc.  or don't know the sources (free or otherwise). 

Maybe  the old way - getting an understanding of how to do family history - using the LDS FHS centres (ordering in the films), records offices, local and national archives and a bit of lateral thinking might be the best way forward. It's maybe got too easy because of people like us.


Gadget

Might well be right.

When we started - something over 14 years ago (and I know that makes us relative newcomers compared to some) - resources in electronic format were few and far between. We arranged many holidays round trips to Derbyshire, London, Worcester, West Yorkshire and various other places in order to be able to gain access to the various sources we needed. We also bought a number of "how to" books and magazines plus joined a couple of FH Societies in order to learn how to go about our research.

One consequence of that is that we couldn't afford to spend money on other things but we made our choice as we all must do in life. Family history isn't the only hobby which costs money - indeed, there are very few which cost nothing.

It's a pity that people cannot always afford to pursue their interests, whatever they may be, but it's a fact of life.

Graham