Author Topic: WW1 fallen  (Read 5733 times)

Offline Nick Carver

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Re: WW1 fallen
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 02 December 08 10:56 GMT (UK) »
I'm another who had an unknown relative. To his dying day, my father told me that nobody in our family had died in either world war, but he (born 1926) had an uncle who was killed at the First battle of Ypres. I found the regimental diary on line (1st/4th East Yorks) and discovered that after months of training, they went to France in 1915 and on the day they were sent to the front, they went over the top. My great uncle, like the Colonel, other officers and qutie a few men, never came back. I sometimes think that he probably didn't even have time to unpack his kit. No body, just a name on the Menin Gate memorial.

So keep looking, if you consider cousins and second cousins of the ancestors live at the time, surely someone would have served.
E Yorks - Carver, Steels, Cross, Maltby, Whiting, Moor, Laybourn
W Yorks - Wilkinson, Kershaw, Rawnsley, Shaw
Norfolk - Carver, Dowson
Cheshire - Berry, Cooper
Lincs - Berry
London/Ireland/Scotland/Lincs - Sullivan
Northumberland/Durham - Nicholson, Cuthbert, Turner, Robertson
Berks - May
Beds - Brownell

Offline Olly

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Re: WW1 fallen
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 02 December 08 14:31 GMT (UK) »
For some who don't understand where I'm coming from, here is a brief resume.
In response to my original post Annie suggested that I might like to 'adopt' a soldier to research.
I said I would, so she kindly sent me the name of a fallen soldier.

Since receiving that name, I have received information from a family member who has found that indeed I do have a relative who served in WW1 and fortunately for us he survived way beyond it.

I will however still continue to research my 'adopted' soldier and as Annie said, come next Remembrance Sunday I will have a 'real live' soldier to remember. (Excuse the pun - no disrespect intended)

Regards
Olly.
Bulmer Draper - Lincoln, Glasgow, Aylesbury
Bulmer - York
Draper,Keogh- Lincolnshire, Middlesex, Liverpool, Ireland
Lowe, Massey - Liverpool
Lowe - Australia
Jones, Owens - Anglesey, Liverpool
Collinson - Middlesex,Birmingham,Liverpool

Offline Fitzjohn

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Re: WW1 fallen
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 14 January 09 23:36 GMT (UK) »
Although all my uncles except one (a conscientious objector) fought in WWII, I'd never heard of any relative fighting in WWI.  Then I found my grandfather had 5 siblings he'd "forgotten" to mention, 2 of them male - both fought in WWI (grandad didn't  ???).

Lizzie

Lizzie

Re your uncle who was a conscientious objector in WW2, have you thought of checking whether he is recorded for posterity in the Peace Pledge Union database of all British COs of whom traces can be found:

www.ppu.org.uk/coproject

Perhaps also your grandfather who did not fight can be found there.

Fitzjohn

Offline LizzieW

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Re: WW1 fallen
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 15 January 09 12:34 GMT (UK) »
Fitzjohn

I'd never heard of the Peace Pledge Union.   Was there an offical list of conscientious objectors?  All I know is that my g.uncle (my mum's brother) didn't fight in WW2 and my father and other uncles, were not too impressed by this.  He would have been just turned 20, so a good 10 years younger than the others, when the war started and I know he went to Oxford University to study theology.  It could be that he was at University when war broke out, and managed to spin out his time there until the war ended.  He did become a baptist minister.

My grandfather was discharged from the regular army as unfit for service, before WWI, so I imagine that was why he didn't fight in WWI.

Lizzie.

ps.  It has occurred to me that I never heard my family talk about my mum's elder brother's war service either, whereas they did talk about my dad (fought in Burma) and the brothers-in-law, and where they were during WWII.  So now I'm wondering whether he was exempt for some reason - he was a butcher would that count?


Offline Daisy Loo

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Re: WW1 fallen
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 15 January 09 12:43 GMT (UK) »
Lizzie, could he have had some kind of diability, or something, that could be a reason for him not serving?
All UK census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


BARNETT- Buckinghamshire, Bedfordshire, Dorset HILSDEN/HILLSDEN/HILLSDON- Buckinghamshire, Berkshire, Canada PRESTIDGE/PRESTAGE- Warwickshire, Northamptonshire, Islington PINNIGER/PINEGAR/PINNEGAR - Wiltshire       Brambleby - Kent, Middlesex     
LEACH- Norfolk   BUTTERWORTH - Lancashire   OTTON - Somerset  LAWRENCE - Berkshire

Offline LizzieW

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Re: WW1 fallen
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 15 January 09 12:57 GMT (UK) »
Daisyloo

No disabilities.  I'm old enough to have known them all and they were all fit young men at the time of WWI - well not over age 30.

Lizzie

Offline Fitzjohn

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Re: WW1 fallen
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 15 January 09 20:38 GMT (UK) »
Lizzie

You have effectively asked four separate questions, which I will try to answer succinctly.

1) The Peace Pledge Union (PPU), founded 1934, is the main British secular (i.e. neutral on the question of religion) pacifist organisation.  As such it opposes all war, and was active in the cause of peace throughout WW2, including, especially, campaigning against mass bombing of German civilians and campaigning for the relief of starving children in occupied countries, particularly Belgium and Greece - Oxfam traces its roots from this effort.  The PPU also, obviously, supported conscientious objectors (COs) to military service, for whom the law quite properly provided, whatever your father and your mother's brothers may have thought about it.

2) Contemporary official records of conscientious objectors were retained so long as conscription itself lasted, but after the final discharge of the last conscript in 1963 the authorities decided on a clear-out, and all records of individual CO cases were destroyed except for those heard by the Midlands Tribunal, which were retained as a sample of how the system worked, and are now in the National Archives.  Partly because of the gap which the clear-out left for family history and other researchers, the PPU has begun the mammoth task of creating a database of every British CO of whom a trace can be found - 7000 names so far, of whom about half are WW2.  The database includes notation of where records, if any, relating to a particular CO still exist (and they do in various places), so the PPU is a useful and logical first stop in enquiries about any CO, and if he/she is not already recorded, a record is automatically begun.

3) Regarding your mother's younger brother, you now seem to have some doubt as to whether he was actually a CO.  Without fuller detail, it is difficult to be precise, but I can say that if he was around 20 when he went up to Oxford, then presumably he began his degree course around 1937.  There is virtually no question that he would have been permitted to finish the course - ?1940, although some courses were actually foreshortened, resulting in what were known as 'war degrees'.  It seems unlikely that he would have been able to spin out any studies for the entire duration of the war, and, as I have indicated, universities themselves manipulated things to actively discourage this.  This does, therefore, raise the possibility that he was, indeed, a CO.  If that were the case, then two further possibilities arise: either he was permitted to go straight to a Baptist theological college to train for the ministry - probably a two-year course, after which he would have been ordained; or he was required to do some alternative service, such as farming, forestry or menial work in a hospital, until c 1946, after which he would have gone to theological college, and then been ordained.  Have you checked Oxford University records, his Oxford College records, records of the Baptist Union regarding their ministers?

4) Regarding your mother's eldest brother, if he was around 30 in 1939, he would certainly have been of military age throughout WW2.  I am extremely doubtful whether butchery would have been a reserved occupation, thereby inhibiting call-up, and if he appeared to be medically fit with no disability then a question remains.  However, men were sometimes rejected on medical grounds that by no means inhibited civilian occupations; there were strict rules about eyesight, for example, and there could be apparently minor foot or leg problems which were seen as potentially causing difficulties for marching or other kinds of military activity.  There is a further possiblity that his entire war service was spent in Britain - this did happen - so it was not seen as interesting.  I can only speculate.

I hope this helps.

Fitzjohn

Offline LizzieW

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Re: WW1 fallen
« Reply #16 on: Friday 16 January 09 09:59 GMT (UK) »
Thank you Fitzjohn for your very comprehensive reply.  I've copied it out so that I won't lose it and will follow your suggestions.

Regarding my Mother's younger brother, I think what I'm saying is that I know he didn't go to war and that the other men in the family were not impressed by that, but I can't actually remember anyone calling him a CO.  I do have some older cousins, nearing or even older than 80, (gosh that makes me feel old!) who may remember more than I do.

Lizzie

Offline Daffodilly

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Re: WW1 fallen
« Reply #17 on: Friday 16 January 09 10:31 GMT (UK) »
Lizzie,

I have a grandfather who was a butcher in WW2 and wasn't allowed to join up because of his trade.  He even learnt to fly in 1940 to help his cause.  He therefore became a part time policeman as that was the most he was allowed to do.

Daff