Author Topic: SANDS / HOLLAND(S) - 1851 lookup, please  (Read 11703 times)

Offline Charlston

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Re: SANDS / HOLLAND(S) - 1851 lookup, please
« Reply #27 on: Tuesday 01 September 09 20:59 BST (UK) »
Hi Kerry,
I've managed to do a little more 'investigating' - have traced back to Joseph Oliver b 1753 Ticehurst, Sussex - spouse Mary Rutley.  With Joseph's parents being a John Oliver and Elizabeth Vidler - but no details on them via ancestry.co.uk.  Any tips for visiting the East Sussex Records Office - where would you start or gain the most information do you think, I don't want to keep my family waiting for hours!

I managed to get George and Louisa's marriage certificate copy - threw me a bit when it said for age 'of full age' - but have found out George's age.  Anyway, thanks again for all your comments.  Very appreciated  :)

Offline M.Ann

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Re: SANDS / HOLLAND(S) - 1851 lookup, please
« Reply #28 on: Wednesday 02 September 09 10:47 BST (UK) »
Hi Charleston,
Taken the liberty of replying although your message is addressed to Kerry --and she IS on the ground there in Sussex and I am not, but I am stumped on my own research at the mo. and we all help each other in this forum and we do get results most of the time!!
You have the parents John Oliver and Elizabeth Vidler, are you sure on these?
There IS a marriage recorded for a John Oliver and Elizabeth Vidler recorded on the IGI (International Genealogical Index. This is online at Familysearch.com
This index was set up by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - The Mormon Church, because they baptise their ancestors postumously to ensure their eternal salvation). Please forgive me if you know all this, but the IGI is a good starting point. Its online, carried at record offices and many libraries and their own reading rooms at their churches and it costs you nothing to search. BUT it its NOT fully comprehensive and entries when they are submitted by members or copied from elsewhere can be wrong. There are also the Hugh Wallis Batches for virtually every county of England and Wales, these are grouped IGI records but they are patchy as regards to parishes. Many parishes and one or two counties declined to hand over their records for transcription to the Mormans because of their ethics being on the fringe of mainstream Christianity. So you need to double check ideally from the Parish register ..the primary historical source and other reliable indexes and transcriptions as well. This includes those painstakingly transcribed by the OPC - Online Parish Clerks. On the Sussex Online Parish Clerks website coverage is patchy. Some parishes are very well covered like Burwash, some not represented at all and for others submissions are made only for people of certain families that the contributor has an interest in. Sorry, Ticehurst aint in it! Another good source is the National Archives which you can search online and buy and download any copies you want, it even tells you where the records are stored. Good for wills, legal disputes, military rolls of honour and so much more.
You have membership to SFHG that gives you access to the baptismal register, the sussex marriage index and other good reliable sources. They are working on a burial index for Sussex but for now try Finmypast parish records where there is a burial index for East Sussex in the cords that the site absorbed from Familyhistoryonline, you can buy credits to view
You have ancestry.com. If your time is limited do your homework first before going to ESCRO in Lewes, its not the place to go and leave your family waiting outside while you just pop in..unless you want to just order some copies of records. You can spend hours in there trawling the records. You have to book these days in advance and tell them what you what to do there, the original registers are on microfiche. You can only take a pencil and sheets of paper in everything else you bring is placed in a locker. So you need to do a bit of prep.
In 1837 BMD registration came in but it was not strictly enforced for some years but makes the task of finding people a whole lot easier. Free BMD is online.
1841 was the first national census up to 1901 online - at Ancestry.co.uk and 1911 at Findmypast.com pay per view (these sites are licensed by the National Archives). Scan and print your most important returns and save in a designated image folder..you may eventually decide the subscription gets a bit much. You'll not get at your images if you save them on the site and then cancel your subscription. These sites are most useful for getting access to the census, other peoples trees and the BMD indexes, searching post Free BMD about 1920 is a murderous task if you have scant information and a common name. Did you watch 'Heir Hunters on the BBC!!
So before you go to ESCRO see what you can do from your own computer and dont forget Rootschat!!!!!! Kerry found my 4X's great grandfather when I couldnt. A trip to ESCRO without knowing his baptism was in the Battle register and not where I expected him to be would have been a probable 300mile round trip waste of time.

Now then John Oliver and Eliz. Vidler. The IGI gives a date as 29/9/1746 at Ticehurst, submitted by a member of the Mormon Church Karla Shelton.
She has a website but there is no mention of this union on her site. Neither does it appear in the Ticehurst, Hugh Wallis Batches. So check the Sussex Marriage index.
John Oliver possible parents Thomas and Martha bap at Warbleton. Their children
John 9/5/1725 m. Eliz Vidler...son Joseph 1753
James 10/9/1727
Martha 12/11/17?
Joseph 23/10/1737
Susannah 30/8/1741 1743
Did they move to Ticehurst?
By looking at the names it does look promising


Eliz. Vidler possibly from Eastbourne no early Vidlers in Ticehurst did they move there? Bap. Eastbourne 23/10/1727 parents Wm. and Sarah

Well see what you can do happy hunting, I hope that some of the above is useful even if you know about most of the things I've told you!! :) M.Ann
Sussex families around Burwash and Heathfield:   Sands, Upfield, Haffendon, Isted and Langridge

Somerset - Bath: Hooper, Taunton: - Poole, Castle Carey: - Colley

Cardiff: - Hooper, Davies (please no Queries!!)

Surrey - Butler, Hersey- around Normandy, Woking

Offline M.Ann

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Re: SANDS / HOLLAND(S) - 1851 lookup, please
« Reply #29 on: Wednesday 02 September 09 11:23 BST (UK) »
Hi Kerry,
Sorry poached a reply to Charleston on an message addressed to you. Quiet morning, dreadful rain here. Can you help me out here, with your local knowledge??
I'm trying to pipoint my greatgrandfathers cottage in Church Street, Heathfield.
I stumbled upon an interesting docu. in the national archives re the ownership history of Priors cottages. Thread http://www.national archives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=179-amsh..
Additional manuscripts Catalogue H
Deeds of Priors, 4-8 Church Street, Heathfield amsh/AMS5624 1733-1902
My great grandfather being Julius Caeser Sands yes.. really.. ::) They kept a general store and bakery
I cant fit the occupants of the road into the census 1861 onward or establish in which cott my ancester lived or if indeed if it wasa separate building further up the road where the old workhouse is. If you google Little Priors Cottage, Heathfield one of those cotts in the row of 3 is up for sale. See the photo, but you prob know it. Could it be next door..the shop. Doesnt quite add up with the Nat Archives Docu or the census

Nat Archives sale 1889 by auction at Crown Hotel, Hailsham Lot 10
a tailors shop and wkshp. w. dwelling attach. occup. Mr Steph. Taylor, a dwelig house called 'Priors' (front used as shop) let to Julius caeser Sands, two cotts. one occup mrs Covell, one vacant and a row of three brick built cotts Ramond pettit, Joseph Barrow and Geo. Haffenden. = 17 cotts Tower St.,a double fronted grocer's shop w. warehouse behind = pub the Gibraltar Arms. All in Geo. Pipers estate

Also, about Kitwish ..is the present building the same one mentioned in the census 1881, it looks too new. Was there another house called Kitwish before the detached house standing on the corner in Church Street now.
I cant get my hand on a detailed enough map on line with enough annotation on it and I dont have Ancestry membership at the mo. but i may start it up in the winter.
Do you have any ideas. Of course at the back of these buildings is heathfield House and Arthur Carthew Langdale the Fuller heir bought Priors in 1902 and these details were with the papers pertaining to the estate. There is a map with them but that is not shown on the site. All is at ESCRO now.
Any ideas much appreciated.
M.Ann
Sussex families around Burwash and Heathfield:   Sands, Upfield, Haffendon, Isted and Langridge

Somerset - Bath: Hooper, Taunton: - Poole, Castle Carey: - Colley

Cardiff: - Hooper, Davies (please no Queries!!)

Surrey - Butler, Hersey- around Normandy, Woking

Offline kerryb

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Re: SANDS / HOLLAND(S) - 1851 lookup, please
« Reply #30 on: Wednesday 02 September 09 15:53 BST (UK) »
Hi Charlston and M.Ann

I've checked the Sussex Marriage Index which incidentally is not available via the SFHG database, as they have published it some years ago on CD and I think the plan is for now to leave it that way.

Anyway

John Oliver married Elizabeth Vidlar at Ticehurst on 29 September 1746, both of this parish and by banns.

This looks the probable marriage of John Oliver baptised 9 May 1725 at Warbleton (from parish register) to Thomas and Martha Oliver.

This is our link as one of their other sons, Joseph born 1737 was the father of my Hannah Oliver and her line including the links to the Hollands family. I was feeling guilty about this thread being hijacked by the Oliver family but as they seem to have a few links with the Hollands family I don't feel so bad! Sorry Stovepipe  ;)

I have lots of information about this family and a tentative tree going back to the 1500s which is currently being looked into in more detail.  If you send me a PM with your email address Charlston I'll send you some more information.

I agree with M.Ann's point about going to ESRO, I think the family might get bored waiting outside while you get heaily involved, no chance of getting them involved in the hunt inside is there?

I believe you said you had joined the Sussex Family History Group? Their baptism database is brilliant, not only for combing the available registers but also for the search on a name facility which allows you to find those strays that were not born in the parish you expect!

Kerry
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Searching for my family - Baldwin - Sussex, Middlesex, Cork, Pilbeam - Sussex, Harmer - Sussex, Terry - Surrey, Kent, Rhoades - Lincs, Roffey - Surrey, Traies - Devon & Middlesex & many many more to be found on my website ....


Offline kerryb

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Re: SANDS / HOLLAND(S) - 1851 lookup, please
« Reply #31 on: Wednesday 02 September 09 16:01 BST (UK) »
Hi M.Ann

A day of what I suppose you call sharp showers here, you get caught in an absolute deluge, turn round to run and the sun is shining!  ::)

Not sure about Kitwish and Priors Cottage but if you don't mind waiting till Friday when I'm not working and have a bit more time, I'll get some of my local books out and see if I can find anything.  I know that part of Heathfield is featured in a book of old photographs.

I agree about Kitwish looking newer, I've had a good look when I've passed it lately and it does look newer, I wonder though, if it was a shop that the front has been altered at some time.

Kerry
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Searching for my family - Baldwin - Sussex, Middlesex, Cork, Pilbeam - Sussex, Harmer - Sussex, Terry - Surrey, Kent, Rhoades - Lincs, Roffey - Surrey, Traies - Devon & Middlesex & many many more to be found on my website ....

Offline M.Ann

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Re: SANDS / HOLLAND(S) - 1851 lookup, please
« Reply #32 on: Thursday 03 September 09 10:07 BST (UK) »
Thanks Kerry,
I would be so grateful if you find anything of interest. Perhaps ESRO has some old centre village maps or plans. Their is mention of a plan with the Heathfield House Estate papers but it is not available online from the National Archives with the transcript of the document.
I am going to send you my simplified file which will show how the property changed hands down the years. There is no mention of Benjamin Sands and Henry Hollands in the document and I cant tie up the names found to those in the censuses. Really, the earliest that affects my great grandfather and the Stovepipes great great grandfather is 1861. The Ben. Sands could be a son of Ben and Ann (nee Thomas but I will have to look further into this.
The Haffendens feature prominently in the docu. namely Richard Haffenden and James Haffenden who were also voters, I disc'd. from the Poll Books. they are a massive family, Marquick and Sarah Haffenden of 'Hooks' near Vines Cross (nee Holmes)were my 5x's great grandparents and Holmes and Haffenden family members as well as the Upfield's were all some time occupants in these houses in Church Street.
be nice to see your photos or have the details of the book Kerry to compare the present day views. But they cant be older than 1860 which doesnt help us for any earlier image of that part of the village so I'll have to see if I can get a plan.

Looks like yours and Charleston Oliver's are fairly sorted from what I have found from here. Wonder who the Nisa/Eunice Oliver is then, nothing in your baptismal index?
yes I was aware that the SMI was on CD but you can purchase it if youve a mind to from SFHG cant you. Nice if they could bring down the cost, I have too few look ups now to justify the expense. I thought it was about £22.

Thanks Kerry look fwd. to hearing from you if you have any more info on Priors. :)

M.Ann
Sussex families around Burwash and Heathfield:   Sands, Upfield, Haffendon, Isted and Langridge

Somerset - Bath: Hooper, Taunton: - Poole, Castle Carey: - Colley

Cardiff: - Hooper, Davies (please no Queries!!)

Surrey - Butler, Hersey- around Normandy, Woking

Offline Charlston

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Re: SANDS / HOLLAND(S) - 1851 lookup, please
« Reply #33 on: Thursday 03 September 09 21:33 BST (UK) »
Hi M.Ann - WOW what can I say, the same as I sent to Kerryb in PM - a HUGE THANKYOU!!  For the information and taking the time to put it all down - and I do appreciate you answering.  I have learnt so much from your message, I am certain the John Oliver and Elizabeth Vidler are correct.  I knew nothing about the Morman's info or the other websites you have mentioned - so now have other aspects to 'investigate' - thank you!
Thanks also for the advice re ESCRO - will give it a miss on this visit, think I had better get my head round all this information to start with.
If I can help you out in anyway let me know, I have several family members still in Sussex - Rye, Hastings, Icklesham areas and of course am going down to Rye/Warbleton area soon. 
Hope you both have a great weekend - Summer IS coming back!! Charlston. :)

Offline kerryb

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Re: SANDS / HOLLAND(S) - 1851 lookup, please
« Reply #34 on: Friday 04 September 09 09:25 BST (UK) »
M.Ann

Now to Priors Cottage. 

One of the books I have is Around Heathfield in old photographs by Sutton Publishing.  Possibly not in print now but you might pick up a copy of www.abebooks.co.uk

I've put together a Sussex book list on my website http://www.kerrysfamilyhistory.co.uk/html/book_list.html which you might find useful and I seem to be adding to it all the time.

One book not on there which I recently purchased is
On the Edge, the story of Punnetts Town by Molly Beswick 2006, very interesting

Anyway back to Heathfield, you are correct the photos are not early enough but its always worth a look because sometimes the information with the photos can give little clues

There is a 1910 view of All Saints Church with the church tower and it says
.......'The church tower only had its clock added in 1920, the three Priors Cottages on the left were demolished in c 1915, whilst the Star Inn had the stables demolished in the mid 1960s....'

So Priors Cottages no longer exist and from the photo and my knowledge I think they seem to be on the left hand side of Church Street opposite what is now the car park of the pub.  I believe there is a track there now going down to Heathfield House and Highlands Farm. 

HTH

Kerry

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Searching for my family - Baldwin - Sussex, Middlesex, Cork, Pilbeam - Sussex, Harmer - Sussex, Terry - Surrey, Kent, Rhoades - Lincs, Roffey - Surrey, Traies - Devon & Middlesex & many many more to be found on my website ....

Offline kerryb

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Re: SANDS / HOLLAND(S) - 1851 lookup, please
« Reply #35 on: Friday 04 September 09 09:28 BST (UK) »
Did you mention a Butchers Shop?

The next photograph is a view of the Star Inn and says that the corner of the building, now Star Inn Cottage used to be a butcher's shop.

Kerry
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Searching for my family - Baldwin - Sussex, Middlesex, Cork, Pilbeam - Sussex, Harmer - Sussex, Terry - Surrey, Kent, Rhoades - Lincs, Roffey - Surrey, Traies - Devon & Middlesex & many many more to be found on my website ....