HARRIS (Essex) Family Bible,

[Rachel Williams]

Hi again--- a long pause between answers LOL--- okay, it turns out that John Turner Harris is my 1st cousin 3x removed. He did indeed marry Emma Jepp. John's mother, Emma was sister to my 2x great grandfather, John Harris.

How has your search been going? Any luck?

Rachel 

[findem]

Hi Rachel,

Absolutely no luck at all, I'm still at the same place I was in my last reply.

Still haven't found a baptism for John Turner Harris so I can't be 100% sure he is the son of Joseph Harris and his wife Lucy Turner, although with a middle name of Turner I would expect him to be.

Joseph & Lucy had seven children, three of whom had the middle name Turner, the afore mentioned John, Caroline and Lucy.

Joseph Harris born circa 1806 at Little Coggeshall (so he claims) still remains elusive like his son John Turner Harris born c1838.

I note that you state "John's mother Emma was sister to......." what date do you have for that John Turner Harris?

If John's mother Emma is sister to your 2 X great grandfather John Harris, did Emma Harris marry a Harris or was your John Turner Harris illegitimate?  I'm a bit puzzled by a female Harris having a child with the surname Harris unless as I've mentioned she married a Harris or had an illegitimate child.

These Harris families seem to be out to confuse me.   

[Rachel Williams]

You are quite right--- I am not sure how the nomenclature works. It is certainly odd:

Here's the Joseph-Emma Harris connection:

ENGLAND & WALES  FREE MARRIAGE INDEX

Name:   Joseph Turner
Date of Registration:   Jul-Aug-Sep 1844
Registration district:   Witham
Inferred County:   Essex
Volume Number:   12
Page Number:   443
Records on Page:   
Name
Emma Harris
Joseph Turner

John Turner Harris
Birth Sep Qtr 1839 in Great Coggeshall, Essex, England
Death Jun Qtr 1882 in Braintree Dist. Essex, England

The 1851 Census:

Name: John Turner
Age:   12
Estimated Birth Year:    abt 1839
Relation:   Son
Father's Name:   Joseph Turner
Mother's name:   Emma Turner
Gender:   Male
Where born:   Coggeshall, Essex, England
Civil Parish:   Great Coggeshall
County/Island:   Essex
Country:   England

Registration district:   Witham
Sub-registration district:   Kelvedon
ED, institution, or vessel:   2b
Neighbors:    View others on page
Household schedule number:   133
Piece:   1783
Folio:   461
Page Number:   31

Household Members:   
Name   Age
Joseph Turner   48
Emma Turner   31
John Turner   12
Emma Turner   8
Sarah Lye Turner   3
Eliza Turner   1

Are you on Ancestry? If so I can invite you to look over my family tree. Perhaps we'll identify some people in common that can help us narrow things for you.

My profile there is:

Rachel Williams
BC, Canada
 

[findem]

Hi Rachel,

First off, I am on Ancestry but haven't put my tree on there.

Having a look at my family group sheets I'm wondering if the Joseph Turner you mentioned, husband of Emma, could be the brother of my ancestor Lucy Turner, wife of the c1806 elusive Joseph Harris?

Lucy Turner was bap 1802 at Pattiswick, her brother Joseph was baptised 1800 at Pattiswick, their parents were William Turner and his wife Elizabeth Betts.

From St Peter ad Vincular, Coggeshall marriage register a Joseph Turner married Emma Harris 20 Jul 1844 at Coggeshall.  I can't place Emma Harris in my Family Group Sheets but she could well be  related through through a sibling of one of my Harris ancestors.  Joseph Turner might well have been introduced to his future wife Emma Harris via Lucy Turner's association with my Joseph Harris, or of course vise versa.

As for John Turner Harris he remains elusive, can you tell me where you got the reference to John Turner Harris born Sep Quarter 1839 at Coggeshall please?  I've just done a recheck of Free BMD and the nearest I can find is a John Harris birth registered in the Lexden District Dec quarter 1840 vol 12 page 14, I get nothing for 1839.  I am assuming you are referring to a birth registration because you mention Sep Quarter 1839, perhaps I'm making an incorrect assumption, wouldn't be the first time and probably not the last. 

My assumption that the parents of John Turner Harris might be Joseph Harris (c1806) and Lucy Turner is based on:-
1) The 1881 Census has him named as John Turner Harris and being born in Coggeshall.
2) Joseph and Lucy Harris named 2 of their 6 proven children Caroline Turner Harris and Lucy Turner Harris.

I couldn't find hair nor hide of him in the St Peter ad Vincular baptism register where I found the other children, perhaps he slipped through the net and wasn't baptised.

Incidentally the first child of Joseph and Lucy Harris was Joseph Harris my great grandfather, he was born in Pattiswick and baptised in Coggeshall. 

Regards.

[Rachel Williams]

We must be closing in

I have a Lucy Turner Harris --- The fact that first names Joseph and Lucy reappear points to an earlier relative. In other words we are just a generation or two out of sync.

ENGLAND & WALES FREE BMD BIRTH INDEX

Name:   Lucy Turner Harris
Date of Registration:   Jan-Feb-Mar 1843
Registration district:   Witham
Inferred County:   Essex
Volume:   12
Page:   323

I got the John Turner Reference from his death record. This also matches the census data for him 1841-1881. It just didn't add in his middle name.

ENGLAND & WALES FREE BMD DEATH INDEX

Name:   John Harris
Estimated Birth Year:   abt 1838
Date of Registration:   Apr-May-Jun 1882
Age at Death:   44
Registration district:   Braintree
Inferred County:   Essex
Volume:   4a
Page:   259

Because Joseph Turner married into my Harris family I have not added relatives for him but I will do so later today and report back. 

[Rachel Williams]

Okayyyy---- so here's how it all fits LOL (I hope)

Lucy Turner (abt. 1802-1885) marries Joseph Harris (abt 1807-1869) around 1831 --- presumably in Essex--- no Coggeshall record of marriage but eldest son Joseph is listed as being born around 1832 so 1831 is a reasonable marriage date guestimate.

Lucy's brother, Joseph Turner (abt. 1803-1858) marries Joseph Harris' sister Emma (1820-1883) in March, 1844 (Witham record)

So therein lies much of the confusion. This information is reflected in 8 shared family trees on Ancestry.
So in my case, Emma Harris is my 2x great grandaunt and Joseph Harris is my 2x great granduncle. I descend through Emma and Joseph Harris' brother, John Harris (my 2x great grandfather) all three children born to Samuel Harris (1784-1841) and Amelia Windall (1780-1879). Amelia and Samuel were both at the battle of Waterloo 1815 with their 3 oldest children Joseph, Samuel and John.

So, it looks like you and I are cousins

We have a small Harris group on FB if you would like to join (we'd love to have you with us). My FB page is linked through my in-progress Geneaology website-blog   http://williams-thomas-doran.blogspot.ca/
The Harris branch has an entry there that may be of use to you.

Hope this helps,

Rachel Williams


 

[findem]

Hi cousin Rachel 

Visited your great site, much impressed. Couldn't find anything of importance to disagree with although I would dearly like to know how someone linked my elusive Joseph Harris circa 1806/7 with Samuel and Amelia Harris, have I missed something?  I would be over the moon to have a link of some sort to Joseph's parents, if as you say Samuel served in the Napoleonic war and  Amelia plus three sons followed Samuel it's possible children, including Joseph, were born in places where Samuel was stationed even overseas.
Incidentally I have in my 'Spares Database' one child of Samuel and Amelia Harris, a son Samuel born 27 May 1805 and baptised 6 Apr 1808 at Coggeshall, I probably recorded Samuel as a reminder to myself that there were other Harris families in Coggeshall.   

From my research, comments:-
Children of Joseph Harris and Lucy Turner
1) I think you're right with your thoughts on William Harris, son of Joseph Harris and Lucy Turner, marrying Ann Nichols they married 20 May 1858
2) Eliza Harris married Arthur Mayhew Dec quarter 1863 Witham Reg District.
3) Lucy Turner Harris married Albert Bright Dec quarter 1867 Witham Reg District.
Since in those days Coggeshall was in the Witham Registry District I would imagine that both Eliza and Lucy would have been married in St Peter ad Vincular Coggeshall, the various Coggeshall ancestors and their siblings whose certificates I have purchased where the Registry District is Witham the events took place at Coggeshall.

There is a problem I found with the marriage of Sarah Ann Harris (daughter of Joseph Harris and Lucy Turner) to George Rowland which I also show.  In the 1881 census for George and Sarah Ann Rowland there is Ann Harris who in the relationship to the Head (George) is stated as mother in law.  I’m wondering if there was another Sarah Ann Harris in Coggeshall or was it just an enumerator or transcriber error.

Regarding John Turner Harris

Have any of your group found the birth or baptism of John Turner Harris c1838? 
So far the only mention I have been able to find of John Turner Harris is in the 1881 Census for Coggeshall and (I think) in his marriage entry to Emma Harris.

I note you show John Turner Harris as son of  Joseph and Emma Turner, I wonder if there was a mix up and he should have been named John Harris Turner.  I can't find any notes in my records regarding his 1871 Coggeshall marriage to Emma Gepp/Gepp, therefore I'm wondering where I got it from and whether the marriage entry recorded him as John Turner Harris or John Harris Turner.  It could be a case of Having got the marriage from someone else and not having checked it out myself.

There is no son named John with Joseph and Lucy Harris in the 1841 Census where he would have been only about two or three years old, nor is he with Joseph and Lucy in the 1861 and 1871 Censuses.  In the 1891 Census Emma Harris his wife is as expected stated as being a widow.

Btw I have a 5th cousin in Ontario Canada, related to my Coggeshall Dalton line.

Regards.

PS what is FB, I don't think I've come across that site.

[Rachel Williams]

Hi again

Okay well lets go over these points--- I'll italicize what you stated and I'll inter-space my answers between them... hope this works

Hi cousin Rachel 

Visited your great site, much impressed. Couldn't find anything of importance to disagree with although I would dearly like to know how someone linked my elusive Joseph Harris circa 1806/7 with Samuel and Amelia Harris, have I missed something?

No you missed nothing. I have no documentation for the connection although Joseph appears in 9 of my family tree connections because of the Lucy Turner marriage.

Also, the Emma Harris-Joseph Turner marriage "is" confirmed and we know Emma's parents were Samuel and Amelia. So "if" Emma and Joseph were brother and sister that makes his parents the same as Emma's. I think it "very" likely that we have the right man.
 
I would be over the moon to have a link of some sort to Joseph's parents, if as you say Samuel served in the Napoleonic war and  Amelia plus three sons followed Samuel it's possible children, including Joseph, were born in places where Samuel was stationed even overseas.

Well this is interesting --- the lack of a baptism or birth record for Joseph is reflected in brother, John. All the census data on John points to Coggeshall except the 1881 census which says he was born in Germany! Also the note in Amelia's Coggeshall burial record mentions 3 sons and the parents at Waterloo. Samuel, Joseph and John all pre-date Waterloo (1815) by birth year.

Incidentally I have in my 'Spares Database' one child of Samuel and Amelia Harris, a son Samuel born 27 May 1805 and baptised 6 Apr 1808 at Coggeshall, I probably recorded Samuel as a reminder to myself that there were other Harris families in Coggeshall.   

Oh! I will add this record for Samuel


From my research, comments:-
Children of Joseph Harris and Lucy Turner
1) I think you're right with your thoughts on William Harris, son of Joseph Harris and Lucy Turner, marrying Ann Nichols they married 20 May 1858


Yes, and significantly my John Harris married Elizabeth Nichols! So a little more research and I will likely go with that. If we had banns and the father's name listed we'd be able to confirm that  

2) Eliza Harris married Arthur Mayhew Dec quarter 1863 Witham Reg District.

I have a Mayhew connection for the Warner family--- Clara Harris married James Warner --- again a Harris-Mayhew connection

3) Lucy Turner Harris married Albert Bright Dec quarter 1867 Witham Reg District.
Since in those days Coggeshall was in the Witham Registry District I would imagine that both Eliza and Lucy would have been married in St Peter ad Vincular Coggeshall, the various Coggeshall ancestors and their siblings whose certificates I have purchased where the Registry District is Witham the events took place at Coggeshall.

Make sure you look over The Coggeshall Records online if you have not done so:

http://www.coggeshallmuseum.org.uk/familyresearchers1.htm

There is a problem I found with the marriage of Sarah Ann Harris (daughter of Joseph Harris and Lucy Turner) to George Rowland which I also show.  In the 1881 census for George and Sarah Ann Rowland there is Ann Harris who in the relationship to the Head (George) is stated as mother in law.  I’m wondering if there was another Sarah Ann Harris in Coggeshall or was it just an enumerator or transcriber error.

Not sure about that BUT we do know there have been enumeration errors before.

Regarding John Turner Harris

Have any of your group found the birth or baptism of John Turner Harris c1838? 
So far the only mention I have been able to find of John Turner Harris is in the 1881 Census for Coggeshall and (I think) in his marriage entry to Emma Harris.

Not as yet. However, I have a death record for him

I note you show John Turner Harris as son of  Joseph and Emma Turner, I wonder if there was a mix up and he should have been named John Harris Turner.  I can't find any notes in my records regarding his 1871 Coggeshall marriage to Emma Gepp/Gepp, therefore I'm wondering where I got it from and whether the marriage entry recorded him as John Turner Harris or John Harris Turner.  It could be a case of Having got the marriage from someone else and not having checked it out myself.

That is certainly possible the nomenclature is certainly unusual

There is no son named John with Joseph and Lucy Harris in the 1841 Census where he would have been only about two or three years old, nor is he with Joseph and Lucy in the 1861 and 1871 Censuses.  In the 1891 Census Emma Harris his wife is as expected stated as being a widow.

Not sure about that--- names seem to come and go haphazardly in census data.

Btw I have a 5th cousin in Ontario Canada, related to my Coggeshall Dalton line.

Regards.

PS what is FB, I don't think I've come across that site.

Nice to see another family member made it to Canada.

FB = Facebook a few of our family members use it to communicate information and share family pictures.

[findem]

Hi Rachel,

Thanks for the clarification on those matters.

Regarding your comment "Make sure you look over The Coggeshall Records online if you have not done so", I have previously spent quite a bit of time on the Museum's Coggeshall Marriages and Burials, unfortunately the Coggeshall Marriages in the Museum site finish at 1851, if only they had transcribed a few more years  .  I hope fairly soon to purchase some time on the ERO's Essex Ancestors so I'll check out the marriages for Eliza Harris and Lucy Turner Harris. 

I think the circa 1837/8 John Turner Harris or John Harris Turner could do with investigation, I'd love to find out how his baptism entry names him, hoping that he was baptised.   

I'm not on Facebook but I'll give it some thought.

Regards.