COMPLETED Mary Ann SAUNDERS Kings Walden to Lilley

[janan]

Hi

I am a bit stumped with this 4x great grandmother and would like to run what I have by you.

Mary Ann Saunders according to censuses was born in Kings Walden c1788. Her illegitimate son Jonathan (my 3x great grandfather) was baptised 7 FEB 1812  in Lilley. Mary Ann married Henry Bottesworth/Bodsworth 23 MAY 1814 in Lilley. Mary Ann Bodsworth died in Luton in 1865.

So far so good. The sticking point is who were her parents.

Now also marrying in Lilley were Elizabeth Saunders in 1810, Ann Maria in 1814, Charlotte in 1822, Hannah 1823 and Sophia in 1829. I have found these ladies (except Sophia) on censuses and they were all born in Kings Walden. This looks like a family moving from Kings Walden to Lilley.

There are matching baptisms in Kings Walden for Ann Maria in 1791, Charlotte 1795 and Hannah 1797 parents William and Elizabeth. The only other child for them on the IGI is William in 1792 - no marriage I can see for him but there is a burial 4 May 1829 Aged 36 in Lilley which would fit.

This would seem the most likely marriage
12.4.1787 William Saunders of Knebworth married Elizabeth Oakley Kings Walden
 and these baptisms
William Saunders 1 FEB 1758       Knebworth parents William and Ann
Elizabeth Okely 8 MAR 1761       Kings Walden Parents Thomas and Anne

which fit these burials
Elizabeth SAUNDERS 26 Aug 1819 Aged 58 Offley
William SAUNDERS 29 Aug 1818 Aged 60 Offley

All very tidy except I have no baptisms for Mary Ann c1788, Elizabeth c1789 and Sophia (who only gets married and then vanishes - can't see on censuses, no burial, no remarriage)

Now if the William and Elizabeth marriage of 1787 is the right one there is time for them to fit in Elizabeth and Mary Ann before Ann Maria comes along in 1791. So why no baptisms?

There is a baptism for an Elizabeth 31 MAY 1789 in Kings Walden and a Mary 22 JUL 1787 parents Thomas and Elizabeth. No burials or marriages for these two in Kings Walden that I can see so could Thomas and William be the same person??

Sorry for rambling on a bit but trying to get this straight in my head

Any thoughts welcome

Jan

[RichardK]

My gut reaction is that you've probably found the baptisms and that the father's name was mistakenly put down as Thomas rather than William.  Perhaps put up a lookup request to see if anyone's able to look at the Bishop's Transcript for those two baptisms, just in case there's any further information on those (I'm afraid I think it will be some months before I next get to HALS).

Also, with connections to Lilley, Offley and King's Walden, this might not be so much a family moving from one village to another, but living close to the border; the border between Lilley and Offley was particularly confused, with Lilley having detached bits surrounded by Offley and vice versa, particularly in the Cockernhoe and Lilley Bottom area.

A further complication to consider is that this area had a high level of non-conformism for a rural area - John Bunyan used to preach at nearby Bendish and there have been Baptist chapels in this area since the 17th century, but I don't believe they have registers going back as far as you'd need.  As far as I can tell the residents of places like Breachwood Green and Bendish were far more likely to use their local non-conformist chapels than travel to their Anglican parish churches which must have seemed rather more remote by comparison.

Plus - don't forget quite how close to the border with Bedfordshire and the huge parish of Luton you are here.  Maybe your disappearing Sophia turns up in Luton quoting her place of birth as one of the local hamlets rather than the parish - e.g. Cockernhoe, Mangrove Green, Breachwood Green, Bendish, Tea Green, Wandon End etc.

[janan]

Hi Richard

Thank you for your very helpful thoughts.

I've just done another search for Sophia and she has turned up in Lilley with husband Joseph Stephens/Stevens - she gives her birthplace as Sandridge c1809. This seems a bit far afield but there is a submitted IGI entry

Sophia Saunders Born 16 MAR 1806   Sandridge  Baptised     
13 JUN 1806      Sandridge parents William and Elizabeth

So looking good. Sandridge is also ringing vague bells in relation to marriage of Elizabeth junior.

Re baptisms of Elizabeth and Mary Ann my gut feeling agrees with yours but always good to check such ideas out in case I'm just trying to make things fit. I suppose it is possible William was also known as Thomas. I will post for a check of those entries. Interestingly I have found a burial of another possible child of William and Elizabeth

Thomas SAUNDERS 16 Apr 1840 Aged 39 Lilley

Must look for a baptism for him.

Thanks again
Jan

Have also found these baptisms

Thomas Saunders 5 Dec 1799 Sandridge parents William and Elizabeth
Sarah Saunders 30 Apr 1802 Sandridge parents William and Elizabeth

also
Mary Ann Saunders 31 Jul 1808 Sandridge mother Elizabeth,  who looks a good candidate to be Elizabeth junior before her marriage in 1810 to John Reynolds in Lilley - John gives his birthplace as Sandridge (knew there was a connection!)

And for further confirmation that the Sandridge/Kings Walden/Lilley/Offley family are one and the same

There are these Lilley baptisms
John Saunders 6 AUG 1820 mother Sarah
Frederick Saunders 3 JUN 1827 mother Sarah
Ann Saunders 19 APR 1835  mother Sarah

and have found in Luton in 51
married Sarah Janes 45 born Sandridge with a Frederick Sanders 23 and Ann Sanders 18 both born Lilley with her

I'm getting really excited here

[janan]

Just posting an update..

I have the will of Thomas Saunders buried Lilley 16 Apr 1840 Aged 39 in which he says his freehold lands in Cottered are to be sold and the money divided equally between, then goes on to list his sisters, all as already found above and, most importantly, including my Mary Ann Saunders Bodsworth. I also have the will of William Saunders farmer of Knebsworth, putative grandfather of Thomas et al, where he leaves land in Cottered to his son William father of the tribe.

All in all great to have this  confirmation

Jan

 

[mikegall]

Hi Jan

I believe the Charlotte Saunders you mention in this thread b.1795 in Kings Walden is my 3x great Grandmother.  If it is the same person then she would have married John Folds in Lilley 7/4/1822 and had my 2 x Great Grandfather Obadiah Folds in 1831 whilst living in Frogmore nr Kings Walden.

I have no other information on Charlotte in my tree and if you were willing it would be great to see what you have managed to find.

Kind regards
Mike

[janan]

Hi Mike

Welcome to Rootschat

I haven't looked at my Saunders for a while so I'll check what I've got. It certainly sounds as if your Charlotte must be sister to my Mary Ann.

Jan

I've just checked the will of Thomas Saunders - Charlotte is there as Charlotte Saunders Folds along with all the other sisters mentioned above including Mary Ann Saunders Bodsworth.

[mikegall]

Jan

do you have a tree on Ancestry by any chance or a GEDCOM file you would be prepared to share?  I'd love to be able to begin populating that branch of my tree.

Might be easier to continue this off forum. 

Mike

[janan]

Hi Mike

I've noted down your email address, Rootschat don't like emails to be posted so they will probably remove it or you can by clicking the modify button and editing. For another occasion you can use the personal messaging system (once you made 3 posts) just click on the green  page thing under a posters details on left.

I don't have a tree as such just a mishmash of various files I'll have a look through what I've got and send what seems relevant. If you want what's on this thread there is a print button bottom right.

Jan

[mikegall]

Hi Jan

hope your are well, it's been a while!

I don't have access to my old emails and the moment so I can't see the information you sent me.  I would very much like to get hold of a copy of the will of William Saunders but I don't have a year of death for him.

Could you advise on that?

Thanks
Mike