Author Topic: Burgess-Spalding - a puzzle/condundrum  (Read 30520 times)

Online Gadget

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 47,499
    • View Profile
Burgess-Spalding - a puzzle/condundrum
« on: Tuesday 17 February 09 21:03 GMT (UK) »
Hi All

One of my brick walls!

This is not really a look up, more a discussion to see if I've missed anything and if there are any other avenues that I might explore. I've tried to give a brief summary of the info but it is rather long and hope that you'll read it with patience. 

Various cousins have been researching this line from the 1950s and possibly before. We have used
all the sources that we can find including lettters, wills, family bibles, kirk sessions minutes,
newspapers, prison/legal docs. and the usual OPRs, MIs, BMDs, censuses, etc.

John Burgess m Jean Spalding - I have a theory that this was a second marriage. The first might
have been to an Agnes Watret in Holywood, DFS.

Known Children ~
Mary - b.c. 1775 -1849 (from 1841 census and death cert/gravestone) Died Wales, aged 75
Thomas - b.c.1777 - 1813 (from gravestone. Army record (NA) suggests b. Kirkmahoe, DFS but
nothing found) Died Kells, aged 35
*James b.c. 1779 - 1856 (from censuses, death cert and gravestone) Died Wales, aged 77
Samuel Spalding  - not sure about this one- see below!
John - b.c. 1884 - before 1876 (info from Canadian descendants) Died Canada
William b. 1789 - 1823 (info from baptism record, probate/etc., newspapers,  letters and bible) Died
New York
Jean b. 1792 -1844 (inf from baptism record and bible) Died Canada

*(re James (my line) - I have found a possible baptism for James in Holywood, February 1779.
parents - John Burgess and Agnes Watret. Investigations so far cannot locate this James other
than the one above. Holywood is adjacent to Kirkmahoe (see Thomas). I have pencilled/italicised in
this record into my tree. His children were: Jean, Margaret, Mary,William, Menie, John, Ann P
Smith, Helen, Johan, James, Agnes (wife's parents William and Margaret Wife's name - Jean))

The first recorded info is from the baptism of William. At that time they were living  at Nether
Gairloch, a farm in the SW of the parish of Kells. At some stage after the baptism of Jean in 1792 they
seem to have moved to Longcroft, close to Kells old parish kirk - marriages of children and
baptisms of grandchildren recorded there. Also, this location is mentioned in the Kells KSMs.
Longcroft is on one of the 18th century maps but not on any modern ones.  Between 1813 and 1815
at least some of the family moved to Nether Dullarg, a large hill farm/ferm toun in the parish of
Parton. John died there in 1815 and it appears that son James took over the lease. Jean Spalding
died at Midlaggan   (not far away from Nether Dullarg) in 1819. I surmise that this was where
daughter Mary and her husband George Carson were living at that time.  Info on John and Jean's
deaths is from the MI in Kells. I think that this was erected by Mary after the death of her husband
in 1833. The inscription reads:

To the memory of
John Burgess who died at Dullarg parish of Parton 11 July 1815 aged 78 years
Jean Spalding his spouse who died Midlaggan parish of Parton 4 November 1819 aged 86 years
Thomas Burgess their son who died at Longcroft 19 March 1813 aged 35 years
Angnes Dunchee his spouse who died 14 February 1813 aged 25 years
George Carson Sergt Royal Artillery and son in law to john Burgess who died Castle Douglas 7
May 1834 aged 61 year.


I think that the age given for Jean is wrong - she would have been 56 & 59 when William and Jean
were born.It is more likely that the stonemason made a carving error and Jean was either 66 or 68
when she died, suggesting a birthdate of between 1751 and 1753. Alternatively, Mary may have
given the age that she would have been when the stone was erected (1834), which would give abirth
date of circa 1748.  It is possible that Jean and William could have been children of one of the
others but no evidence of this. From Mary's will, it would appear that she was unable to have
children and 'adopted' Thomas's son when Thomas and Nancy died.

Dullarg was owned in the late 17th century-18th century by the Spalding family (a Samuel Spalding
was minister of Parton 1692-1712. The Fasti has him b. in Ireland of Scottish stock. Educated
Edinburgh and m. Elisabeth Broun, the heiress of  Shirmers - including Dullarg) . In 1756, there is a will for a Margaret
Spalding of Nether Dullarg (m WilliamWaterson). Her brother, Samuel contested it. His brother was
Alexander Spalding who m. Jean Gordon of Holme, Balmaclellan. Ref in Dumfries KSM of 1774 to
Alexander asking for permission to be buried in the plot of his recently deceased brother, Samuel. Added - from the SP burial records, Samuel was buried in Dumfries 11th Feb 1774
So far, I've not found the grave.Samuel, Alexander, and by inference, Margaret, were children of
Samuel Spalding and Elisabeth Broun (Fasti) . None of Alexander and Jean Gordon's children fit my
Jean Spalding, which leaves the possibility of Margaret or Samuel but no documentary evidence.
Alternatively, she might not have a connection with the family. The current Kirk Sessions clerk for
Parton believes that there must have been a link though.

contd/..........................
Census &  BMD information Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and GROS - www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Online Gadget

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 47,499
    • View Profile
Re: Burgess-Spalding - a puzzle/condundrum
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 17 February 09 21:04 GMT (UK) »
contd...............

Having exhausted lines of enquiry on all of the other children, I've turned my attention to Samuel to
see if there are any clues there.

Samuel Spalding Burgess and Euphemia Coltart m before 1808

Known Children ~ (Kells or Balmaclellan)
1808 Jane
1810 William
1812 Agnes McMichael
1816 Jane
Sept 1823 Thomas (from Canadian censuses  and death cert - also a bpt in Kells in Oct 1823 but
assigned to Samuel's brother John)

1841 -
Euphemia living in Pluckmain,Kells, aged 45-49
A possible for Samuel in Blackridge, Balmaclellan as Samuel Spalding, 45-49, MS b. County

I have a copy of a letter written from his brother John in Canada to his brother James in Wales in
1841 suggesting that Samuel had had some kind of problem but that they had no sympathy and
referred to his son William as going off to US and leaving the family - the behaviour that you would
expect from a son of Samuel.

Canadian cousins thought that Samuel died but no proof.

Euphemia and the rest of the family went to Canada in late 1840s/1850  - before the 1851 census.

I have found a death cert for a Samuel Spalding Burgess, June 1858, Sanquhar, Dumfriesshire:

Described as a stay maker, aged 80, Parents -----------Burgess, farmer (deceased) and
----------------m.s. Spalding (deceased). The informant was Grace Burgess, widow.

On the 1851, I've found a likely pair in High Street, Sanquhar, although the age is way out but fits with the 1841.

Samuel Spalding, 58, stay maker, b. NK, Ireland
Grace Spalding, wife,  40, staymaker, b.Borgue, Kirkcudbrightshire


So, is this Samuel the son of John Burgess and Jean Spalding or not?  If it is, it suggests that he
might have been b. Ireland. Alternatively, was he the son of just Jean Spalding. None of the other
children gave Ireland as a birthplace on any of the censuses.

Are James and his sibs all descended from the same family? I seem to be stuck at John Burgess and Jean Spalding just like all the other descendants!

Grateful for any ideas, comments, etc.


Thanks for reading all this  :)


Gadget
Census &  BMD information Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and GROS - www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline Scatza

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 91
  • Alabama Azalea
    • View Profile
Re: Burgess-Spalding - a puzzle/condundrum
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 17 February 09 22:19 GMT (UK) »
Gadget, how can I resist adding my tuppence worth? We have discussed the possibity of a link between my James Burgess family and yours before, and were not able to make a connection. However, I am still convinced that there is one, although it may be further back than the more easily accessible records suggest.  Now you have thrown a Coltart into the mix, and that has got me going again ::) Coltarts are in my direct line, although back in the mid 1700's to 1800's is where I stopped looking.

A recap, because it was some time ago, and I have since added my James' likely parents. Unfortunately I have not been able to find more about them - yet - but I was wondering if you have come across a Francis in your research and process of elimination?

Francis Burgess b. abt 1754 and Jannet Stott b. abt 1780 (he is at Muiryard, Borgue, 1841 census - place of birth not helpful, just says 'Kirkcudbrightshire', and the he died a pauper so unlikely to have a will!)

Children:
Mary b. abt 1801
James b. 9 Oct 1803 Kelton
Ann b. abt 1816

James married Helen Shaw and was a Blacksmith in Rhonehouse. He died in Kelton 8/12/1866. I won't include the rest because I don't think they will provide any clues.

I will take a closer look at all the information you have provided, and see if any new avenues open up .....previously I didn't have all that.  Sorry I have no great insights to offer now, but after all that work you deserve an acknowledgement and I am interested in seeing what other responses your post gets!

Scatza




McMurrie/McMurray, McFegan, McClune, Coltart, Shaw, McLean - Kirkcudbright; McMurray, Simpson, Adams, Mussett South Africa

Online Gadget

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 47,499
    • View Profile
Re: Burgess-Spalding - a puzzle/condundrum
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 18 February 09 00:02 GMT (UK) »
I'm still not convincesd, Scatza, although I'm keeping my options open  :)

I do recall looking at a Francis at one stage but decided that he wasn't one of my Burgesses.

Re my puzzle - a PS really - I have searched for Spalding variations - Spadie, Pauling, etc. There is a family in Wiltshire who eventually inherited Holm from Alexander Spalding. Alexander's daughter Jean (b.c. 1750) married a James(?) Fraser in Edinburgh.


Gadget
Census &  BMD information Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and GROS - www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

Offline Scatza

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 91
  • Alabama Azalea
    • View Profile
Re: Burgess-Spalding - a puzzle/condundrum
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 18 February 09 04:08 GMT (UK) »
O.K., but I'm not conceeding - yet! Is it just serendipidy that James Burgess and Jane Corson in Parton had daughters named Ann Smith Burgess b. 6 Oct 1822, and Helen Burgess b. 20 June 1825? They are the next generation to my Helen Shaw Burgess and Ann Burgess, who was my James' sister.  I have no other Ann in my tree, only in my Burgess line.  Maybe my James' father, Francis, was a bother of your James' father? Do you remember why you excluded that possibility?

I checked out Euphemia Coltart, and was more surprized by this - none of the Euphemia's on LDS seem like a remote possibility in my Coltart line  :o

I'm probably distracting you from your original reason for posting this thread, but hey, at least I'm interested!

Scatza
McMurrie/McMurray, McFegan, McClune, Coltart, Shaw, McLean - Kirkcudbright; McMurray, Simpson, Adams, Mussett South Africa

Online Gadget

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 47,499
    • View Profile
Re: Burgess-Spalding - a puzzle/condundrum
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 18 February 09 08:22 GMT (UK) »
Hi Scatza  :)


Thank you for your interest.

I am really trying to find information on John Burges(s) b.c. 1737 and his wife Jean Spalding b. <I know not when>  So far, many of my relatives and I have tried to find them by searching numerous records (including Kirk Sessions Minutes in Edinburgh), newspapers  and personal documents.

If you think that there is a connection between your Francis and this family, it might help if you could establish his parentage. 

Burgess is not all that uncommon a name in Kirkcudbrightshire and Dumfriesshire. I have got the MIs for all the parishes in KKD and, although there are numerous inscriptions, only one is definitely one of my ancestors'.

In the 1841 census, there are 49 Burgess and 6 Burges in KKD. Of these  less than 10 are definitely my relatives. By 1851, there are 44 and 10 resp. and even fewer are definitely related to me. By 1861, they have all gone - to Wales, Canada, USA and Liverpool.

I would be interested in any leads that help me get more information on John Burgess and Jean Spalding.


Regards


Gadget


PS Her name was Jean/Jane Carson -  Corson was one of those many clerical and/or transcription errors that one finds in the OPRs
Census &  BMD information Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and GROS - www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

Offline Scatza

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 91
  • Alabama Azalea
    • View Profile
Re: Burgess-Spalding - a puzzle/condundrum
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 18 February 09 22:02 GMT (UK) »
Well, you seem to have covered all possible sources that might reveal more about your Jean Spalding, and I can't think of a single other one that might help  ??? I have not been able to find anything more on Francis Burgess, other than what is in the OPR's. Oh, and two more children that I found while looking at your data and generally searching around - Grizel 1799 Crossmichael and Isabella 1805 Parton. I don't think there is even an MI for him. However, his wife Jean/Jane Stott's family appear to have been in Holywood in 1795 when they married (Robert Stott and Ann Aitkin (son)). Possible matches to my lot keep cropping up on Ancestry.com in Canada (as you know two of my McMurrays went there in mid 1800's), but nothing definitive. After my James and Helen Shaw died, not of that line of Burgess' are in Scotland either. I guess there are just some things that we will never know!
McMurrie/McMurray, McFegan, McClune, Coltart, Shaw, McLean - Kirkcudbright; McMurray, Simpson, Adams, Mussett South Africa

Online Gadget

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 47,499
    • View Profile
Re: Burgess-Spalding - a puzzle/condundrum
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 18 February 09 22:14 GMT (UK) »
As far as I can remember there were two Burgess families in Holywood having children around 1730s- 1750s  a John and a Robert. I think there was an early Grizzel b. to a John Burgess there. It might be worth following them up.


Gadget
Census &  BMD information Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and GROS - www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

Offline Scatza

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 91
  • Alabama Azalea
    • View Profile
Re: Burgess-Spalding - a puzzle/condundrum
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 19 February 09 17:52 GMT (UK) »
Gadget, I do have an idea  :P If Samuel Spalding Burgess' 'behaviour' was somewhat in question, have you looked him up in jail/prison? It's intriguing that Euphemia makes no bones about being Mrs. Samuel Burgess once she arrives in Canada, so the other possibility is that Samuel just died? There are not many Canadian census entries that stress the Mrs. bit,  give the husband's name rather the woman's own name, which to me suggests she might have been a widow.  But you have probably checked that out already. I am more interested in the Coltart connection now than spending any more time on 'my' Burgess family per se ...... it's been years and nothing "ah ha!" has revealed itself. 

Scatza
McMurrie/McMurray, McFegan, McClune, Coltart, Shaw, McLean - Kirkcudbright; McMurray, Simpson, Adams, Mussett South Africa