Author Topic: A notable whoore  (Read 2486 times)

Offline grantleydawn

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A notable whoore
« on: Sunday 15 March 09 06:33 GMT (UK) »
In a previous topic "Handwriting deciphering", you helped me translate the baptism of the child of Margaret KENNEDIE, who was described by the kirk session as a notable whoore.

Here is a baptism that I am trying to decide if it is the baptism of the mother Margaret KENNEDIE.

Can anyone tell me a name that I would use to describe this style of writting?

Also, can anyone translate the heading, that I have circled, plus the last two lines.

The IGI & SP put the date as 6th June 1599. Could the heading be - Wednesday 6 Junij -
Using the IGI, I assume the last 2 lines read;
Gawane Kennedie frazyooncie? A D N Margaret w
Johnne ?oyer?

Regards
Grantley

Offline PrueM

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Re: A notable whoore
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 15 March 09 06:46 GMT (UK) »
Hi Grantley  :)

The style of writing is Scottish Secretary Hand - similar to the secretary hands in England and Wales and other places at the time.  Of course it comes with its own idiosyncratic spellings and phraseology, as well as bits of Latin thrown in for good measure  ;)

I'll see what I can make of the entry...

Prue

Offline JAP

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Re: A notable whoore
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 15 March 09 06:59 GMT (UK) »


Offline PrueM

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Re: A notable whoore
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 15 March 09 07:03 GMT (UK) »
To me it looks like the first name is "Gavonne" and his occupation appears to be "Spargeonier" or similar...I'm fairly certain I've got the "Sparge" bit right.
JAP is right though - I'm out of my depth a bit here and am only checking against the Scottish Handwriting "letter finder" page, which is something you might like to do too:  http://www.scottishhandwriting.com/cmLF.asp

Surname of witness might be "Roger"  ???

P.S.  As JAP says, it is going to be hard to prove that this is "your" Margaret...it gets increasingly difficult as you go further back, as parish records contain less and less information  :-\


Offline JAP

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Re: A notable whoore
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 15 March 09 07:16 GMT (UK) »
Great work on the occupation, Prue!

The following site:

http://www.scotsfind.org/databases_free/glossary.pdf

gives the following definition:

"Spargener, spargeoner = plasterer."

Interestingly, it's doesn't seem to be in the glossary on the ScotlandsPeople site!

JAP
PS: Prue, I'm sure you are right with Johnne ROGER; perhaps Grantley can find another capital 'R' somewhere else on the page.  And Grantley, I reckon you are right about the date.  Why it's written 'Junij' I don't know; a 'j' at the end instead of an 'i' was common but then why 'Junii'.  But, as Prue says, Scottish documents have their own idiosyncrasies vis-a-vis English documents.  The first Secretary Hand document I ever tried to decipher was a Scots one and it was a beauty - not just scrawly (nothing like the neat documents you've posted) but also with all sorts of Scots words for crops, animals, weights, etc, etc.

Offline grantleydawn

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Re: A notable whoore
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 15 March 09 07:58 GMT (UK) »
Thank you for your help, both solving my problem & educating me to solve my future problems, which will occur.

A considered an R, keeping in mind that there are multiple ways of writing a letter.

Attached is an R, that appears twice in the document plus a character that looks identical to the one being deciphered. But as I keep thinking to myself, does this help or confuse the issue.

Regards
Grantley

Offline PrueM

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Re: A notable whoore
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 15 March 09 07:59 GMT (UK) »
Hooray for me!  ;D 

Offline grantleydawn

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Re: A notable whoore
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 15 March 09 08:09 GMT (UK) »
Did I miss something?

How did you get Roger?

Grantley

Offline JAP

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Re: A notable whoore
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 15 March 09 09:22 GMT (UK) »
Grantley,

I'll certainly endorse 'hooray' for PrueM for working out spargeoner!!

And I think that Roger is correct too.

Not like the capital 'R' you've found but entirely consistent with, though a little larger than, so many lower case 'r's in the various extracts.  Including the one you've underlined for William reid.

Do you have a different suggestion?  :)

All the best,

JAP