BURGOYNE Family of Plymouth (Ancestors of Cleopatra Cecilia Burgoyne, b. 1844)

[bennever]

Excellent work, thanks guys.  Who to select next for the Cleo fan club is the biggest question.  Though somehow I doubt we're finished with Cleo just yet!

We do know from the 'Strange Affiliation Case' that the couple separated in about 1870 and that William went to San Francisco and that she claimed she had inadequate means for her support.  The article also records that Cleopatra had lived with Bennett as his wife for 4 years. 

A report of the same court case also appeared in Reynolds's newspaper but contains some additional information - it records that Cleopatra while in Hertford ie living with Bennett 'had her two children by her husband taken to her'.

John Cecil wasn't born until Dec 1870 and the three children were all definitely living in 1877 so I think the suspicion of Cleopatra's infidelity is just a little more likely as a result.

[Limeburner Mitchell]

G'day all.  Long time thread reader, first time poster.  And outing myself here - Limeburner Mitchell is the RootsChat nom de keyboard of the aforementioned 'Grant', upon whose occasionally accurate research some of this thread is based. 

Sorry I've not contributed to date.  Parental duties. 

I am loving these latest developments.  I find Moatville's 04 Dec post very amusing indeed. 

With an apparently intemperate brother and a pretentious father I can't believe my second great grand aunt would behave in such a way.  Really I can't.  And the very idea about a baronetcy being founded on the wrong side of the sheets is powerfully outrageous. 

With the pot-boiling tendencies of this thread appearing to be dangerously on the bubble again, I might try to bring back some good old-fashioned BMD facts into the mix.  There's a few such things that don't relate directly to the Ptolemaic Queen that I thought I'd share. 

Firstly, Cleopatra's father John Burgoyne, as you all know or suspect, was absolutely not related to Gentleman Johnny Burgoyne.  As Rol has indicated, he spent time as a civilian developing sapper building projects, and appears to have wound up at Woolwich.  He was neither a Captain nor a Colonel.  He died at Magdala Villa, Belvedere, Kent on 13 June 1873.  Particulars of possible interest from his death certificate are:

Cause of death: Disease of the heart P. M..  Age: 54.  Occupation: Clerk, Royal Arsenal. Informant: Information received from C J Carltar, Coroner for Kent, inquest held 16 Jun 1873.

So within three days of John Burgoyne senior's passing there was not only a post-mortem, but also an inquest.  I wonder what the circumstances of his death were that the coroner required an inquest? 

Secondly - I'll preface this by saying I'm pathetic at Irish research.  Well, perhaps 'pathetic' is a bit harsh - with a madcap two year old to look after I really don't have time to get started.  However, after all this time it's a shame I don't have more about the sketchy Irish period to add.  In particular, there's one aspect of the Irish picture to which I'd like the answer.   And that is: whatever became of Cleo's mother, Susan Smith Giles?  In early 2009, I believed I had found a death for her back in Plymouth in 1854.  However, upon my further investigation, that proved to be quite another Susan Burgoyne.  (I do apologise if my previously published research findings have led anyone to accept that Cleo's mum was out of the picture due to passing on in Devon in the mid 1850s!)  So quite why Susan Smith Burgoyne was out of the picture, and where she exited it, I don't now know. 

Thirdly, re Hannah Burgoyne - given the timing I initially wondered if she may well be one of the late William Burgoyne the younger's daughters with his wife Grace.  However, the Chelsea baptism and 1841 Census entry have scotched that thought. 

Just on William the younger - pending the possible discovery of other children baptised outside Plymouth St Charles - I have him as William and Dorothy's eldest child.  William junior was a builder/property developer and - surprise - a Clerk of Works in the Royal Engineers.  William the younger died in Hong Kong between 1847 and 1851.  I have his will, proved in February 1851.  He leaves pretty well everything to his dad, gives a nod to his mum and makes sure his wife Grace and ther children are duly cared for out of various property and insurance investments.  No brothers/sisters named.  Still, it's all pretty textbook stuff.  Although ... I could have sworn I read somewhere he was bankrupted just a litle earlier in the 1840s.  Perhaps something to chase up when my boy leaves home. 

The only children of William and Dorothy I have definitive baptisms for are Sarah Hardy and John.  That's covering the period 1814-16.  These baptism records appear in the Devon Family History Society's index of Devon baptisms for 1813-1837.  William the elder was a carpenter, and along with Dorothy was living in Jubilee Street and Water Lane, Plymouth St Charles during the period.  It may be that George was baptised outside Plymouth Charles, or in a parish not covered by the Devon baptisms?  Certainly there is other published research out there that indicates William and Dorothy had sons William (1807) and James (1808) before they left Kingsbridge.  (James Burgoyne was a witness at John Burgoyne's marriage to Susan Smith Giles.) 

Great work everyone. 

Yours, in awe of the research on display here,

Limeburner Mitchell, about to hit the 5500 character limit ...

[bennever]

Hi Limeburner, welcome!

Usual warnings etc but the IGI has an Elizth Rundall Burgoyne chr 1822, daughter of William & Dorothy.

Barry

[Limeburner Mitchell]

G'day Bennever,

Thanks for the welcome!  And thanks for your excellent Ennever research!   

And thanks for the tip-off about the 1822 Burgoyne baptism.  You make excellent point.  I am sure I did know that.  It's probably in a pile of unprocessed genealogical printout in a folder under my desk somewhere.  My son will probably get the pleasure of sorting through all that after he's moved me into appropriate aged care facilities.

In this case, the usual LDS-related warnings partially apply.  I suspect the transcriber has confused a cursive 'Randall' for 'Rundall'. 

The Randall (or Randle) family of Kingsbridge, Devon marry into the Blackawton-based Burgoyne family through the union between William and Martha Randall back on 10 Sep 1775.  They're the grandparents of Elizabeth Randall Burgoyne born 1822 (and of course the parents of the William we're talking about here). 

Actually, I think I recall William and Dorothy had another go at christening a 'Sarah Hardy Burgoyne' too, come to think of it.  <Goes away, checks IGI, comes up trumps, cancels appointment with doctor to discuss fading memory>.  Yep, there she is, born 16 July 1820, yet another poor Sarah Hardy Burgoyne who didn't make it past her 5th birthday, bless her.

I mentioned in my post yesterday that another researcher appeared to have found an earlier John (1807) and James (1809) born to William and Dorothy as well.  A quick surf earlier proved this to be pretty true.  There's some terrific Devon parish transcriptions I've not seen before on http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~our4bears/index.html that confirm this.  One day I'll get in touch with the site admins to find out what else of the Burgoyne back story hasn't made it online yet.  (Get well soon, Ray Osborn!)

Limeburner Mitchell, focussing on the Georgian Burgoynes (but still not finding your 'George')

[Rol]

Hail,  Grant!  It is really good news that you are back "on the case".  Your work is certainly the foundation of most of what we know of all these Burgoynes pre-1800 -- not to mention all the info you discovered about the life and descendants of Cleo's brother the medic.  I was beginning to wonder whether some misfortune might have befallen you.  (Worst case scenario:  our remote descendants feeling the need to launch the 22nd century equivalent of a What Happened to Grant M? thread ).  Anyway,  hope young Mitchell 2.0 is progressing well.

Thanks for your entertaining post.  (I especially liked the Ptolemaic Queen -- we need to avoid running low on elegant synonyms,  and that's a good'un!)  The substance of what you have written prompts me to hunt out your long e-mail of 19 May 2009;  I had a similar missive on the stocks to wing back to you,  but was waiting for promised info from someone else before finishing up the text -- info which never showed up,  with the consequence (I am sorry to realise) that my own missile never left the launch pad either.  Still,  I am glad you have been able to stay up to date with developments by keeping an eye on our collective musings here.

I must do more revision;  but a couple of first reactions to your post of 05:34 GMT (5 December).  First,  I am disappointed to hear than the fate of the mother of Cleo + siblings is right back in the mystery zone -- as you say,  in May last year the death in 1854 looked quite a reasonable bet.  So now -- Ireland,  the Bahamas,  aboard ship,  USA (following voyage there on another vessel) . . . ??  Back to the drawing board.

As you comment (and as did I too -- Reply 27),  there are still too many gaps in the Irish part of the story.  We ought to put in some more effort on that front.

Very well done in finding out what happened to John Burgoyne's elder brother William jnr.  So he was a clerk of works for the RE too -- and went out to Hong Kong!  That will was a good find -- evidently this one in the PCC index:

Will of William Burgoyne, Clerk of the Works in the Royal Engineer Department of Victoria Hong Kong , China
13 February 1851

It would be nice to discover more about his RE involvement,  to see if there were any direct links with John's own.  I think you did indeed say last year that you had found insolvency notices about William in the London Gazette.  Do you still think it was the same man?  One would have thought that the Soldiers of the Queen might have turned a bit awkward on hearing about that sort of thing . . .

I am glad you have posted up the details of John Burgoyne's 1873 death cert.  Meant to do that near the start of this thread and never got round to it.  I tried for press reports of the inquest,  but failed to spot anything;  probably should have persisted longer.  My best guess was that the death was "sudden" and not immediately explicable -- i.e. he just dropped dead,  and the medical people wanted to make quite sure it was his heart.  Still,  mere speculation,  and it would be good to know more.  I have an old lookup request on the RootsChat Kent board for some one to try and find an Erith-area MI for him;  but no fish nibbled.  Maybe worth trying some resuscitation over there (in a non-Transylvanian sense).

And let's all hope a suitable Devonian baptism turns up soon for George Burgoyne the London joiner.


Rol

[Limeburner Mitchell]

You have the Burgoyne history previous to this via "Grant".

What about the Giles or arent you interested in that side of the family ?

Fizzy

Hello there Fizzy, Rol, and readers.

Just stealing another rare moment at the keyboard. 

Fizzy, I loved your early work in this thread and have missed your contributions as it has evolved recently. 

As I'm now a lot time poorer than I was back in early 2009, I was wondering whether I might run three questions past you related to the quote above.  Without introducing serious scope creep into the thread, that is. 

Firstly, and least scope-creepy, have you access to anything that could confirm the parentage of the John Giles Burgoyne born in Plymouth in late 1840? 

Secondly, and a bit more scope-creepy, any chance you might be able to identify a birth/baptism and parents for Thomas Giles in 1785?  In the 1851 Census the enumerator lists his birthplace as Plympton. 

Thirdly, how about Elizabeth Prowse/Prouse, Thomas Giles' wife?  She's allegedly from Christow, according to the 1851 Census. 

I'd be extremely grateful if you - or anyone else - could enlighten me on any of these matters.  Many, many thanks in advance!

By the way Rol, thanks for yet another kind message.  This hasty paragraph won't do it justice, of course.  However, I should add for the record why I decided to reopen to speculation the ultimate demise of Susan Smith Burgoyne (both to ensure my conclusions are available to be challenged, but also because I keep making executive genealogical decisions without documenting them!).  I now believe the Susan Burgoyne of Alfred Street, St Andrew Plymouth who was buried aged 31 at Ford Park cemetery on 09 Feb 1854 was the wife of William Burgoyne - no apparent relation.  They were at Cambridge Street, Plymouth St Andrew in the 1851 Census. 

Sorry to run.  Better get this boy bathed and fed. 

Cheers all,

Grant

[bennever]

I take it all back!  Cleo & William's divorce papers acknowledge 3 children from the marriage.  There are 16 or so A5 pages so it's difficult to copy and to be honest there's not a lot of other new information but some salient points are:

Petition filed 6/5/1874
Decree nisi 7/11/1874
Final decree 25/5/1875

William gave his address in May 1874 as 34 Sherborne St, Islington, occupn Gentleman.  He & Cleo resided in Belfast, London & 'divers other places' (not very helpful!).  Cleo left to reside with Bennett in Dec 1872.

These papers are available to be copied from TNA for £9.40 plus P&P so may be worth ordering if you're interested (but as I say don't really add a great deal to what we already know).  They do contain copy marriage & Samuel James Bennett's birth certs.

Barry

[Rol]

... We do know from the 'Strange Affiliation Case' that the couple separated in about 1870 and that William went to San Francisco and that she claimed she had inadequate means for her support.  The article also records that Cleopatra had lived with Bennett as his wife for 4 years. 

A report of the same court case also appeared in Reynolds's newspaper but contains some additional information - it records that Cleopatra while in Hertford ie living with Bennett 'had her two children by her husband taken to her'.

John Cecil wasn't born until Dec 1870 and the three children were all definitely living in 1877 so I think the suspicion of Cleopatra's infidelity is just a little more likely as a result.

I take it all back!  Cleo & William's divorce papers acknowledge 3 children from the marriage.  There are 16 or so A5 pages ... some salient points are:

Petition filed 6/5/1874
Decree nisi 7/11/1874
Final decree 25/5/1875

William gave his address in May 1874 as 34 Sherborne St, Islington, occupn Gentleman.  He & Cleo resided in Belfast, London & 'divers other places' (not very helpful!).  Cleo left to reside with Bennett in Dec 1872.

"Acknowledgment" must carry some weight,  of course.  But that was legally the default setting,  given that on so-called public policy grounds the law imposed quite a burden of proof on a husband who might wish to overturn the strong presumption that a child conceived by his wife while married (and not formally separated) must be his.  If proof to the contrary was hard to establish,  accepting such a child would often be the path of least resistance -- whether for reasons of altruism or otherwise.

One must add that it is pretty difficult to reconcile the chronology implied by the three different press reports of the 1877 affiliation case,  let alone make them fully fit the account in the divorce file.  And Old Man Power's will communicates a strong sense of resentment and suspicion about his younger grandson.

Still,  on present evidence I am inclined to back John Cecil genuinely being William Power's child.  His birth cert. looks pretty unexceptionable and the 21 December 1870 DoB it shows matches the one he later used (e.g. in the details he provided to Burke);  it also agrees with the age of 3½ averred by his father in the divorce petition of May 1874.  The cert. reproduces the original state register book entry,  and comparison of the words "William Power" in the different columns indicates that the informant section was signed in the father's own hand.

Some of my earlier doubts were sown by the fact that the LDS's version of the Irish GRO index did not contain any suitable entries for 1870;  the recorded John Power births for Antrim and Down were dated 1871,  1872 and 1874.  That now seems to be fully explicable by William Power's slight delay in registering the birth -- which he did on 11 January 1871.

Another cause for suspicion was the version of events shown in the IGI,  i.e. that the correct date was 21 December 1871.  But the entry concerned was a "submitted" one,  so always subject to more doubt than information derived from the quality-controlled "record extraction program".  The normal distrust seems fully justified in the case at hand:  the 1871 date for the birth shown in the IGI now just looks like a case of careless transcription.

There is also some contemporary photographic evidence bearing on the matter.  William Power's two sons look so alike and close in age when pictured side-by-side as children that much of one's residual suspicion is allayed.

The motives that underlay John Cecil's exclusion from his grandfather's will may never become clear . . .


Rol

[dfowler]

Re Grants posting re Thomas Giles Burgoynes wife Elizabeth Prowse of Christow(1851 census). i am separated from my files at present but there were 2 Prowse families in Christow then and my lot was one of them.If you happen to know her parents or birthdate etc i will find out how she fits in.

The answer may help with another Burgoyne/Prowse puzzle. My gt gt grandfathers brother was Josias Prowse bp 1797 Christow.After his young wife died there in1825 Josias m 1830 Jane Burgoyne and they moved to the St Agnes tin mining area of Cornwall. Descendants in America are keen to find out about Jane Burgoyne.

many thanks DF