Author Topic: Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?  (Read 5211 times)

Offline oldcrone

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Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?
« on: Wednesday 06 May 09 18:53 BST (UK) »
A difficult one this, but when you've got a grandfather who gave different names (both forenames and surnames), different dates of birth and different places of birth, then you're stuck with a difficult family history to research.

One thing about my grandfather though, is what he looked like.  He had, according to his army records when he enlisted in London in 1900 with the Leinsters, black hair and blue eyes.  He said that his birthplace was Ottawa, Canada.  He definitely had a connection with Canada and retained a Canadian passport in later life (I haven't been able to verify whether he was actually born in Canada).  He also told his children that he's been born in Ireland (Tipperary), and then went as an orphan to Canada.  He had Dupuytren's contracture, which is more commonly a European (particularly Scandinavian) condition. 

To be honest, I've fantastised that he had a North American (Indian) background (black hair and a slightly hooked nose).  Having said that, 'hair of black and eyes of blue' sounds very Irish to me.

Here are two photos of my grandfather when he was a young man - any ideas or insights gratefully received!:
Shaw/Smith: Ottawa, Canada<br />Davies/Hill: Monmouth/Gloucestershire/Middlesex/Surrey<br />Chatfield: Kent<br />Crone: Kent/Sussex/Surrey/Ireland<br />Lyden: Ireland<br />Pannell, Newland, Proudley (travellers): Sussex/Surrey<br />Dobson, Hollins: Staffs/Cheshire/Warwicks<br />Boys: Sussex/London<br />Payne: Suffolk/London
Hasting(s): Sussex

Offline chirp

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Re: Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 06 May 09 19:48 BST (UK) »
An intriguing problem to be sure. My guess is that the story about him being born in Ireland and then going to Canada is likely to be the right one. Have you looked for possible orphans records in Ireland? What about records of orphans being sent to Canada? Who adopted him in Canada? Were there any siblings or adoptive siblings? What else do you know about him? Have you got his marriage and death certs?  These are just a whole bunch of questions which popped into my mind - you have probably thought along these lines anyway. I don't think he looks like he has native american ancestry. Wish I could help! Good luck.
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Offline aghadowey

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Re: Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 06 May 09 20:30 BST (UK) »
Concentrating on the supposition that he might have been born in Ireland and then been sent to Canada there's several sources you can check.
Index to civil registrations should list his birth if born after 1864:
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails;t=searchable;c=1408347
Also try LDS site (www.familysearch.org) as they have some, not all Irish births (mainly 1864-c1882).
Then search for record of him leaving the U.K. for Canada on www.findmypast.com- index is free to search and give name, sometimes age, year and port of departure and post of arrival.
Would he have been in Canada at the time of 1911 census?- search it (free) on www.automatedgenealogy.com.
Canadian attestation papers online at National Archives, Canada website.
Without a name and dates I can't think of any other ideas at present.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline oldcrone

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Re: Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?
« Reply #3 on: Friday 08 May 09 23:22 BST (UK) »
Thank you, chirp and aghadowey, for the responses!

I've tried all sorts of lines about my grandfather on Rootschat in the past, so I don't want to bother people too much with the same queries again.  It's just that I've got hold of these early photos of my grandfather recently, so I thought I'd try the 'desperation' approach.

I've checked familysearch, findmypast, the 1891 Canadian census; I've had someone a few years ago check the Ottawa births for the 2 different birthdates/3 different surnames my grandfather gave; he gave different names for his 'deceased' father on his marriage certificates (as well as different ages for himself); on his army records in 1900, he gives his next of kin as two brothers (David and John) 'address unknown'.  I've searched findmypast extensively for him leaving Ireland with/without brothers, or coming to England prior to joining the army.  I've tried searching the UK census lists, in case the whole Canada/Ireland thing was a myth.  The problem is, is that I get to a point beyond the names, etc that I DO know, when there's no way of verifying anything.  My grandfather gave his name as James Aloysius Smith, John Arthur Shaw, John Aloysius Shaw and also, apparently, went by the surname of O'Connell.  He gave different places of birth (Ottawa and Tipperary), and gave different birthdates (1881 and 1883, and he also lied wildly to my grandmother about his age when they married!).

I will have a look a bit more at the familysearch site.  Sorry to post the same old stuff about my grandfather, but sometimes a fresh view of it helps.

Many thanks

Clara x

Shaw/Smith: Ottawa, Canada<br />Davies/Hill: Monmouth/Gloucestershire/Middlesex/Surrey<br />Chatfield: Kent<br />Crone: Kent/Sussex/Surrey/Ireland<br />Lyden: Ireland<br />Pannell, Newland, Proudley (travellers): Sussex/Surrey<br />Dobson, Hollins: Staffs/Cheshire/Warwicks<br />Boys: Sussex/London<br />Payne: Suffolk/London
Hasting(s): Sussex


Offline Sandymc47

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Re: Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?
« Reply #4 on: Monday 11 May 09 21:00 BST (UK) »
Are you sure they didnt call him Walter Mitty as well - laugh

Good luck in your search

regards

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Online Treetotal

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Re: Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?
« Reply #5 on: Monday 11 May 09 21:06 BST (UK) »
Hi Old Crone....try googling this  it may be of help..

Home Children Canada...or

British Home Children

Good Luck!

Carol

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Offline MKG

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Re: Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?
« Reply #6 on: Monday 11 May 09 21:25 BST (UK) »
Well, normally I hate generalisations. However, If I'd seen only the photos and hadn't read the Ireland/Canada story, I would have said Serbia-Bulgaria-Armenia-Turkey or thereabouts. Merely an observation, though.

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Offline c-side

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Re: Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?
« Reply #7 on: Monday 11 May 09 22:22 BST (UK) »
I'm with Mike - on the photographs alone it's those high cheek bones with the narrow face that made me think of that area.

I'm also thinking that whatever his name was his initials could be JAS as he's used them a lot in various ways.  Not that it will help in any search I know of!

Christine

Offline oldcrone

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Re: Ideas on the ethnicity of my grandfather?
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 14 May 09 08:26 BST (UK) »
Haha, Walter Mitty!  My grandfather was actually referred to as "a lovable rogue" in the past!

The Eastern-European 'look' is interesting; he had quite a swarthy complexion, but then he had blue eyes?  Hmm.

Also, I have searched on 'Home Children' before, but I will revisit this aspect again.

Thanks everyone, for these further suggestions - believe me, I've got to a point when I'm open to any avenue of thought with this elusive character...

Clara x
Shaw/Smith: Ottawa, Canada<br />Davies/Hill: Monmouth/Gloucestershire/Middlesex/Surrey<br />Chatfield: Kent<br />Crone: Kent/Sussex/Surrey/Ireland<br />Lyden: Ireland<br />Pannell, Newland, Proudley (travellers): Sussex/Surrey<br />Dobson, Hollins: Staffs/Cheshire/Warwicks<br />Boys: Sussex/London<br />Payne: Suffolk/London
Hasting(s): Sussex