Author Topic: Are all the names listed on one-name websites necessarily interconnected?  (Read 5334 times)

Offline GeoffE

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Re: Are all the names listed on one-name websites necessarily interconnected?
« Reply #27 on: Friday 22 May 09 19:49 BST (UK) »
Quote
On natural children; In southwest England during the 18th century some vicars would register the surname of the believed father and then score through the name leaving it legible to show that they knew or believed who the father was, the entry would then continue base (son or daughter) of ---. Does anyone know of this happening elsewhere?

I have one like that - the boy was about 9 months old and his parents had been married a couple of months in this case.
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Offline GeoffE

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Re: Are all the names listed on one-name websites necessarily interconnected?
« Reply #28 on: Friday 22 May 09 20:07 BST (UK) »
I sent this list of dates to Keith earlier today - perhaps it helps to explain things.  Some baptisms are in BIVRI but not IGI

1768 May 16 St Botolph's, William KNOWLES married Mary ANDERSON
1773 April 15 St Mark's, Peregrine KNOWLES, son of William and Mary
1774 April 13 St Mary le Wigford, John KNOWLES, son of Mary
1775 June 9 St Mary le Wigford, Susanna KNOWLES, dau of Mary
1776 August 22 St Mary le Wigford, William KNOWLES, son of Mary
1778 Nov 7 St Mary le Wigford, Susanna KNOWLES, dau of Mary
1798 presumed death of John DOCKERY
1800 Nov 17 St Mary le Wigford, Peregrine KNOWLES married Mary JACKSON
1801 Oct 4 St Mary le Wigford, Susannah KNOWLES bap dau of Peregrine and Mary
1803 Aug 21 St Swithin, Mary Ann DOCKERAY bap dau of Peregrine and Mary
1805/6 likely birth of John DOCKERY (son had middle name of Peregrine)
1808 Nov St Swithin, Martha DOCKERAY bap dau of Peregrine and Mary
1811 Aug 19 St Swithin, Sarah DOCKERAY bap dau of Peregrine and Mary
1812 Dec 17 St Swithin, Sarah DOCKERAY bap dau of Peregrine and Mary
1816 July 2 St Swithin, Elizabeth DOCKERAY bap dau of Peregrine and Mary
1825 March 6 St Mary le Wigford, burial of Mary Ann DOCKERY (21)
1825 Oct 10 St Mary le Wigford, burial of Peregrine Knowles DOCKERY (53)
1832 Sept 9 St Michael on the Mount, John DOCKERY to Elizabeth MARSH
1836 June 19 St Swithin, Wm TATE (wid) to Martha DOCKERY (1841 census shows Martha aged 30, so that's her)
1845 Nov 2 St Mary le Wigford, Richard GLENN to Elizabeth DOCKERY
1858 Feb 1 Burial of John DOCKERY (52)
1859 Jan 12 Burial of Mary DOCKERY (94) - perhaps her extreme age is doubtful in view of 1816 birth of Elizabeth?
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Offline Ron Lankshear

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Re: Are all the names listed on one-name websites necessarily interconnected?
« Reply #29 on: Saturday 23 May 09 01:47 BST (UK) »
Ah the baptism list presumably means the Susan in the Will is the one of 1778 - assuming the 1775 is deceased. So from 1774 Mary had other children not mentioned in 1798 Will - are they deceased? Or did John just have his favourites.

So that just leaves the Mary Jackson birth date mystery - did she just misunderstand her birth date? And it was really in 1770/80s.

The crossing out of father's name in example would appear to be a correction after the event. Did the curate find out he had been misled and change it back
I note BMD has Births Dec 1852 Sherrard Robert    Wigton    10b   379
but I could not find the marriage.

Regarding the practice of crossing out names - for a child born out of wedlock the mother might well want to identify a father as well as the parish wanting to also for financial reasons. So rather than it being a name inserted and then immediately crossed out I would think it likely that these were an after the event crossing out when the man found out and saying it was not me - I am not paying. 
Ron was born in Shepherds Bush and "knew" London fairly well
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Offline Geoff-E

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Re: Are all the names listed on one-name websites necessarily interconnected?
« Reply #30 on: Saturday 23 May 09 14:00 BST (UK) »
Regarding the practice of crossing out names - for a child born out of wedlock the mother might well want to identify a father as well as the parish wanting to also for financial reasons. So rather than it being a name inserted and then immediately crossed out I would think it likely that these were an after the event crossing out when the man found out and saying it was not me - I am not paying. 

The sequence of events-
25 Nov 1852 birth of Robert SHERRARD, illeg son of Jane
15 June 1853 marriage of Jonathan DENWOOD to Jane SHERRARD (at Gretna Green, Scotland)
15 Aug 1853 baptism of Robert DENWOOD SHERRARD

Jonathan DENWOOD's 2nd marriage was also at Gretna (Scotland)

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Offline Ron Lankshear

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Re: Are all the names listed on one-name websites necessarily interconnected?
« Reply #31 on: Saturday 23 May 09 14:37 BST (UK) »
Ah  Gretna no wonder I did not see on BMD.

My comment as quoted was in relation to an idea that fathers names were put in registers and then crossed out just to establish a link to the father. I don't think the cases mentioned involved the couple eventually marrying. Just my thoughts on the practice - I do not have a knowledge any "rules" that might have existed.

In Robert's case which is different  I think there is a curate fixing the register to what he thinks is the legal position. Undoubtedly Jonathan was making a statement about the child Robert being his ..... Did Robert use the name Denwood as his own

The curate was really being difficult - even recently I have known baptisms of the children and the minister just asked that they take place the day after the wedding.  
Ron was born in Shepherds Bush and "knew" London fairly well
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Offline Keith Sherwood

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Re: Are all the names listed on one-name websites necessarily interconnected?
« Reply #32 on: Saturday 23 May 09 16:19 BST (UK) »
Sorry, everyone, for some reason I've not been getting e-mail notification about this thread and hadn't realised that the baton had been picked up again...
I hope that Geoff's excellent list of important details helps to clarify things a bit more, and now I can to begin to imagine what the sequence of events in this exciting tale might have been.
After that 1768 marriage between William KNOWLES and Mary HARRISON I notice that there is a 5-year gap before the birth of (their) first child, Peregrine.  Perhaps the unfortunate William was incapable of fathering children, which is when John DOCKERY appeared on the scene.  In the registers, the first 1773 baptism gives both William and Mary as parents, but thereafter only Mary is given as the mother in the subsequent baptisms of his siblings.
I wonder too who was responsible for giving Peregrine his most unusual forename - it can mean "foreigner", and I suspect that William might have had something to do with that.  And I wonder too if Peregrine always knew who his real father was, or whether he didn't realise until he read the contents of John DOCKERY's 1798 will.
Certainly when he marries Mary JACKSON in 1800 he is still calling himself KNOWLES, and his first child Susanna is baptised as a KNOWLES in 1801.  Afterwards, of course, from 1803 all her siblings came with the DOCKERAY surname.
I wonder too when it was that Mary KNOWLES actually moved in with John DOCKERY as his "housekeeper".  And the Lincolnshire sausages certainly must have had extra spice in them with the gossip that must have been rife in a town of 7,000 inhabitants (according to Geoff E's extensive knowledge of the area) at that time!
Very best wishes,
keith

Offline Redroger

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Re: Are all the names listed on one-name websites necessarily interconnected?
« Reply #33 on: Saturday 23 May 09 18:33 BST (UK) »
That's potentially very bad news for me, as I thought I had pinned my ancestry down more or less to my 3 Xgreat grandparents, and the surname deleted.Now looking for the parents of John Luffman b1776, Somerset or possibly Dorset who joined the Somerset Fencible militia in Bath May 1794 as a trumpeter.Any ideas please?
Ayres Brignell Cornwell Harvey Shipp  Stimpson Stubbings (all Cambs) Baumber Baxter Burton Ethards Proctor Stanton (all Lincs) Luffman (all counties)