COMPLETED - Thanks -GURNEY Family - Rickmansworth/St Albans?

[Maddie]

Oh that's sad, poor soul, what did he do for a living.

Hope you have the correct James.

Maddie

[CFP39]

Hi Maddie

Fairly sure that I have the correct James now.      There wasn't a sister Ellen on the 1861 CR, but have now found a bp. for one in 1862!  Their mother was then about 40.  James' wife was only 44 when she died of 'heart decease'.

James was down variously as Lab, Watercress Lab & Watercress Grower.  On the death cert. it was Watercress Lab, so the Grower entry may have been an exaggeration.   
Believe that there was a well known Payne family of watercress growers in Rickmansworth but James' father (Jacob) & grandfather (Jacob) were green grocers.  Suppose there could be a connection back a generation or two. 
 
One of the problems with large families is that if parent or parents die young the children need someone to look after them.  In this case the eldest daughter was married and lived a few doors away and I think she may have taken them on.  (Sisters 12 & 5 and brother 9.)  Know what happened to them in later life but not in their childhood years, yet.

I'm quite surprised at how much I've found out in the last few months. 
Great to be able to find so many helpful people on this site.  Hope I'll be able to return the favours sometime.

Lee

[Maddie]

Hi Lee

Would Ellen be the one on the IGI bp 23 Nov 1862, parents Joseph & Nancy (Paine.)

Did you happen to find her in the 1901 at the Town Hall. I'm assuming you meant Ricky not Watford.

Was your James married to Lucy or Ann, or maybe neither. I see there were 2 James born Ricky, one in 48 & one in 49. How confusing.

Have you been able to find James's children with the elder married daughter in the 1901.

Maddie

[CFP39]

Hi Maddie

Yes that's the one - lived in Church St, Rickmansworth.

No, didn't find her in 1901 - yes, Rickmansworth Town Hall!

Yes, having two Jameses  that close together has been a pain. 

My great grandfather, James Payne (Pain) married Ann Elizabeth Paddick at Chorleywood on 22/10/1870.  That's the 1st time I came across a different spelling.  This certificate proves that his father was Joseph.

Strange things about the family weddings - although they were from Rickmansworth or Watford only one, on direct line, found there.
Have Joseph & Nancy at Hillingdon, Middlesex    - 
Peter Paddick to Dinah Green at Harefield - 
Joseph Payne to Maria Nichols  at St Albans  - 
David Paddick to Elizabeth Hemming at Winchcomb, Gloucestershire - 
James Green to Lucy Nicholls at St Mary's Watford.
Have yet to find James Gurney to Hannah Coleman (but not on HALS list).

As for the children, I think that only the youngest, Jessie, would still have been with her sister  by 1901.  Think Edwin Francis is the one who shows as being 'Page Boy Domestic', and Florence Ann also probably in service.
When Ann died it was her son in law, Edward White, who registered her death.   His address is given as no.4 Northampton Terrace, while the Payne family was still at no.1  

Only one that I don't know what happened to was the eldest, William, my father didn't mention him at all.   
But then he told me his father was born in Berkshire!   
Suppose that he had an excuse as he wasn't home much after joining the army as a boy, so missed out on family talk.   

I had to ask questions to find out what he did know.  Trouble was I didn't know all the questions I might need answers for.   

Well it's turned me into a detective,  getting quite good at making 'educated guesses'.

Thanks for your interest
Lee

[Maddie]

Hi Lee

I think I may have just found your Ellen in 1901, although her name is Ellen Beasley married to Frank Beasley, he is a Hall Keeper caretaker in Ricky High Street. Must be the Town Hall surely. Is that spooky or what.

Frank Beasley married Ellen Payne March 1889 Eton 3a 601. (Free BMD)

Maddie

[CFP39]

Hi Maddie

Yes, that is the Ellen Beasley (didn't realise I hadn't given her married name).   
Hadn't got her in 1901, but in 1881 she was Under Housemaid DS at 27 Devonshire Terrace, London Middlesex, with a Johnstone family.
Can't think why I didn't find her marriage!  Thanks for that.
I suppose James could have been visiting his sister to get a rest, no way of knowing.   

Do you know if there are any photos available of Church Street in the 19th C?
Wonder if there's one showing J Payne - Green Grocers.

Our local town has several little books of postcard photos which are very popular! 

Regards
Lee

[Maddie]

Hi Lee

I have the book "Rickmansworth A Pictorial History" that has quite a lot of pics taken in Church Street. (ISBN 1-86077-027-4) but if you have a look at Chris Reynolds site

 http://www.hertfordshire-genealogy.co.uk/home.htm

On the Ricky pages he lists a few postcard books that can be hopefully found for sale on the net.

I can't actually see J Payne - Green Grocers but I'm sure it would be possible to work out where it was from the census.

Regards
Maddie

[Maddie]

Hi Lee

I have the Centenary Edition of the Watford Observer !863 - 1963 & thought you might be interested in this little snippet I have just found on Batchworth Paper Mill.

In the early days of the Observer (1863) the wheels turned 24 hours a day, non stop. Men working in sets (3 in each set) worked 12 hours duration, lads were also employed but worked days only, sometimes not finishing until 8 p.m. These boys fed the "sifters" which cleaned the "half stuff".

Female labour was only employed from 8 a.m. until 5 p.m, nearly all workers being on piece-work. Pay day was Saturday & "sorters" (rag) earned six shillings a week, "dusters" earned nine shillings a week. Breakfast was half an hour, dinner an hour at midday & half an hour for tea.

Hope this gives you an idea of your Gurney's life style.

Regards
Maddie

[CFP39]

Hi Maddie

Having a ancestor involved does bring history much more interesting.   
Will have to work out how much 6/- would buy back then.  The kids find it amazing that when we got married I had 9 pound per week for all  housekeeping! 

Had another look for the family in 1901 -

Edward (sic) F Payne - 14 - b. Newbury was Page Boy - St Peters Rural
sister & brother in law -
Edward White 29 b. Newbury  - Printer Folding Machine Minder - St Peters Rural!
Ada J White 29 b.Rickmansworth - St Peters Rural
so he was nearby   

Jessie Payne 11 b. Newbury was still in Newbury
but Uncle & Aunt still there -
Edwin Paddick 46 - Market Gardener
Sarah Paddick 50 - Laundress.   

Will have a look for postcard books at the weekend.   

Have a good one

Lee