Rose & Crown - Broxbourne

[Ruskie]

Just thinking about the White Bear being called Anne of Cleeves .... I suppose there a chance that the pubs currently on the High Road have gone through several name changes over the centuries?

Would the current landlords know what their pub was called in 1871? Possibly/probably not.

You say the Rose and Crown wasn't there in 1881 - was there still a pub there going by a different name or was the building demolished or altered?

[leofred]

Hi Ive had to p our myself a Pimms for this. Looking at the 1881 census because Broxbourne had expanded there are more districts and they have changed the name of the High Road to Broxbourne Road. I have found this difficult to get my head round this especially as I dont know Broxbourne.
I havnt managed to get through to the Bull yet they are either very busy or closed down. When I rang the White Bear the lady there told me she wasnt alive then  but she did think it was once called Anne of Cleeves but she didnt think the pub was that old. I have emailed the secretary of HertsFHS with a request of help but I dont know whether they will help as Im not a member.

I am very grateful for your continued help.

[Ruskie]

I feel a bit the same leofred. I've just been up and down the high street on the census but it is a VERY long high street and there are so few landmarks to narrow down the area where the pub was.

If you have a look at a current map - the google maps satellite is good, I've "narrowed" ( ) it down to what streets exist now.

There is Station Road to the north which heads east off High Road. That is on the 1871 census.
Follow that south. Not too far down was the Bull Inn (that looks like it still exists today).
Now along High Road were lots of residences, only a few presumably larger ones were named, such as Chanon Farm and Walton or Watson Lodge. Something to think about too, is that there were far fewer residences and several farms along that road, with quite large distances between residences.

On the 1871, after the Rose and Crown there are a few more residences then William the 4th, then more residences along the High Road, then we come to Bull Lane.

Now I believe that "Bull Lane" is today's "Bell Lane".
(I've followed this road before looking for my own ancstors who lived in Broxbourne.)

On today's map, you can follow Bell Lane west - it turns into Baas Hill, then Broxbournebury (named on the 1871) then White Stubbs Lane, then Broxbourne Common (on the 1871) then Pembridge Lane (also on the 1871). So, this is the enumerators route in the 1871 cenus.

BUT unfortuantely the closest we can get is a guess as to the whereabouts of the Rose and Crown, which is towards the southern end of the High Road before today's Bell Lane. 

All of this doesn't help with a photo of the pub, but I think the Herts FHS is worth a try. They may have a photo or drawing of the High Road which includes the pub. You could possibly ask them if there would be a cost involved in the search or if you can give a donation and they may be more inclined to help.

Good luck anyway - let us know how you get on.

[leofred]

Oh Ruskie I feel so guilty that I have put you to so much trouble on my behalf . Please give up now and wait for a reply from the Herts FHS. It will probabley be a while before I hear but what ever they say I will post on here.

Many grateful thanks for all that you have done.

[Nick29]

It's just occurred to me - another place to try would be the Hertford County Library. They may well have some local reference books, and if you ask them nicely, they may do a little research for you 

[Ruskie]

It's no trouble leofred. I enjoy doing the detective work. Not a very good result this time, but following the enumerator's path often yields results.

Lets hope the FHS or Library can find something for you. 

PS. My family are in Bull Lane 

[Rick]

From the Hertfordshire Inns & Public Houses an historical gazetteer, by Graham Joliffe & Arthur Jones.  Published by Hertfordshire Publications.  ISBN 0-901354-79-1.  This is a reference work dedicated to Hertfordshire hostelries, and records all Herts pubs which were open in 1900 and still open in the 1990's.

There are only 3 pubs listed under Broxbourne.

The Anne of Cleves - Formerly; The White Bear, The Bear, The Dog & Bear - High Road corner of Mill Lane.  Earliest known reference 1643

The Bull - High Road - Earliest known Reference 1521

The Kingfisher - Formerly; Railway Inn/Hotel, New Inn - Station Road - Earliest known reference 1862.

However, the index states under Broxbourne to also look at Hoddesden. I'm not familiar with this neck of the woods so I am not sure how relevant this is but there is a Rose and Crown.

Rose & Crown - 90 Amwell Street (corner of Belcher Road) Earliest known reference 1850.

Apparently Hoddesden had several pubs of this name.  The first opened in 1704 near the Post Office in the High Street. This closed in 1850 and was succeeded by the one in Amwell Street which was rebuilt in the 1930s.   

Not sure if this helps.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Rick                                                                                            

[leofred]

Thank you Nick & Ruskie for replies I will try Hertford Lib. I have rung the Bull and it isnt them they have always been the bull.
Ruskie you may live in Broxbourne but you have put in a lot of work and I appreciate what you both have done.
The ball (ignore the pun) is now in my court and  I will post any progress or lack of it here. I am always amazed how helpful everyone is at Rootschat and I know if you guys cant come up with an answer then without a crystal ball(there I go again) then no one can.

Many many thanks to you both.

[leofred]

Hi Rick thanks for your reply. When I rang the Bull today they told me there was a Rose  & Crown at Hodddesden and I assumed that was a different village. As Ruskie is familiar with the area maybe he could throw some light on this.

Thanks once again