Looking for a Jones in a haystack

[Ermintrude46]

Hi there,
Hoping someone can help me find William JONES (shipwright/ships joiner, born Deptford 1811) and Susannah Jane CHEESEMAN (born Deptford 1817) in the 1841 and 1871 censuses.  William and Susannah were married in 1845 just over the river in Bromley St Leonard but had at least two children prior to the marriage who were registered and baptised in Deptford as tho' they were already married:  William bn. 5/12/1841 bp. 9/1/1842 and John Joseph bn. 9/12/1843.

I have them on the 1851 census in Deptford (HO/107/1585 f13 p19) with sons William 9, John J 7 and Richard 12 days.  Also on the 1861 census in Poplar with sons William 19, John J 17, Frederick C 6, Edward G 4 & my great-grandfather Richard 1.  William senior had died by 1881, when the widowed Susannah is back in Deptford with Richard aged 20 (RG11/702 f20 p33). 

I'm aware of the large gap between John Joseph and the first Richard (who must have died) and the even larger gap betwenn JJ and Frederick C and probably they lost several children in that space but not sure how I can narrow them down from the hundreds of Joneses available in the indexes - any suggestions/help very welcome.
Ermy

[jorose]

I noticed that in the 1861 census the second youngest boy is Edw. G., and think his birth and death are on freebmd:

Edwin George Jones, b. Dec 1856 quarter, Poplar
                                  d. Sep 1866 quarter, Poplar

Also a John Joseph Jones m. in Poplar in 1868, apparently to Emma Charlotte Hathaway (she died in 1890 and he remarried), and stayed in Poplar.  You can see them in the 1881 at  RG11 piece 0509 folio 7 page 7.

In 1871 they are in Byker, Northumberland, RG10/5106 21/36 (John was a ship carpenter, so they also must have moved around).

[Ermintrude46]

Thanks, jorose - for some reason I had assumed "Edw" was Edward and Edwin hadn't occured to me at all, doh!
Ermy

[jorose]

Do you know which church the first two boys were baptised in? The later records might not be on the IGI, but those would be the best place to start to look for other siblings.

An original baptism record or birth certificate for the first boy William should give you an address to look for the family in 1841.

Oh dear! http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def1-982-18400302&div=t18400302-982#highlight

[Ermintrude46]

jorose, what a FAB find!!!! Blimey, a gay girl indeed!!

William jr was baptised at St Nicholas, Deptford according to the IGI, I've been to the Greenwich History Centre several times and have scrabbled through my paperwork but can't seem to find a note of seeing a microfiche of the original entry in 1842 - that's a good idea and I will follow it up.  I do have the birth cert for John Joseph - he was born 9 Dec 1843 and registered by Susannah on 15 Jan 1844 (but doesn't seem to have been baptised at St Nicholas).  The place of birth and residence of informant are both Stowage, St Nicholas, Deptford. 

Interesting, on the birth cert the baby's father's name is given as William Warrington Jones - this is the name of Susannah's future husband's FATHER.  William himself wasn't given a middle name at baptism and doesn't use it on his own marriage certificate when he married Susannah on 7 Apr 1845 in Bromley St Leonards or on the censuses I have him on.  I had thought this meant that JJ's father was William junior, just I wasn't previously aware of his middle name, but now I'm wondering.....!!!

Ermy

[jorose]

1841 census does have a William Jones, 30, at Stowage, St. Nicholas Deptford.  b. in county, so perhaps he stayed at that address? No sign of Susannah with him.

[Ermintrude46]

Hi jorose,
Is that the one that A*y has indexed as "William Jane" ? (10 7 piece 488; Book: 1; Folio: 32; Page: 18; Line: 16)  I think I saw him and discounted him as his occupation looks like Sail Maker (very crossed out, but I think that's what it says).  Still, Stowage is just round the corner from Deptford Green which is where William Warrington Jones and his wife, Sarah, and the rest of the Jones clan were for donkey's years.
Ermy

[Ermintrude46]

Blimey, it gets worse for Susannah, if that's possible! http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def1-1296-18400406&div=t18400406-1296#highlight

In the 1841 census, in Deptford, I have Robert Cheeseman (Susannah's father) aged 58  living alone.  Then there are two empty houses and then in the next house, Robert's brother James Cheeseman aged 45 is living with Jane (44), Joshua (9) and Martha (6) Cheeseman - Joshua and Martha are Robert's children, but I had assumed his wife Jane had died.  By the 1851 census, Robert Cheeseman aged 69 is an in-pensioner in the Greenwich Hospital and James Cheeseman aged 57 is living with Martha aged 16 (and now indentified as his niece).  Will have to try and find out which child was starved to death and what happened to Jane .....
Ermy

[jorose]

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def1-1744-18360704&div=t18360704-1744#highlight

The Times, Friday, Jul 08, 1836; pg. 6; Issue 16150; col E
 - has some info on the trial of Jane Cheeseman for the murder of Jane Sarah Cheeseman.  It was claimed that between Jan 1 and 16th June, 1836, according to the coroner's inquest, she had beaten and confined Jane Sarah to certain rooms in the house of William Cheeseman (her father), until Jane Sarah died on the 16th of June, 1836.

She was allowed to plead guilty to manslaughter rather than murder, as it appeared Jane Sarah had also been suffering from consumption, and "the younger daughter" had also been labouring under a similar or even greater amount of work, and so the prosecution allowed that Jane had truly believed her daughter was "faking" her sickness.

The Times, Monday, Jun 27, 1836; pg. 6; Issue 16140; col A
 - there was an inquest, at which the principal witness was Isabella Cheeseman, 12 years old (the deceased was 15).  This records Isabella as sister as the decased, and Jane as their aunt, who they had been living with for three or four years.  I'm attaching a copy of this article.

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