My Brick Wall - William Swaby b.1847 St Pancras

[Mygenes2006]

Hi, I originally posted a message along this line in 2007 but thought I would retry it again as there are new people on here and new information available on the web so am keeping my fingers crossed that this time I might have a break through, but as I've been trying to solve this mystery for 10 years I am not going to hold my breath as they say.

I am trying to trace the ancestors of William Swaby b. 1847 St Pancras.

He joined the army on 8th July 1861.  He was 14 years and 0 months at the time.  He joined for 12 years but didn't actually leave until 7th July 1902.  He states he was born in St Pancras, London. 

His fathers name according to his marriage certificate was William Robert Swaby (no occupation listed and it doesn't say he was deceased (that was in 1885)). 

He says he's never lived away from home prior to joining the army.  He joined the 61st Foot but also says The glos Reg Batt No 1689.  When he left he was with the the 2nd Battalion Welsh (Welch) Regiment. 

His first marriage was in to a lady called Martha, but she died shortly after the birth of their daughter Minnie, who was born in Dover whilst they his regiment were there.  He was a Color Sergeant at the time of her christening which took place in Dover before they sailed to Gibraltar where he was stationed.

His second marriage was to Ella Ursula Connor on the 15 April 1885 in Bombay and was 38 years of age at the time which ties in with a birth in 1847.

His two daughters were christened in 1886 Poona and 1887 Purhundar he was a Sargeant Major both times. 

When he left the army on the 7th July 1902 he was aged 55 so this again ties in with him having been born in 1847.

I can find no record of his birth, no census entries for him in 1851 or 1861.  I've been through the birth registers on a page by page basis.  I've now run out of ideas.  If anyone has any suggestions as to where to go next with this they would be very welcome as my grandmother who is 87 (his grand daughter in law) would dearly love to know more about him. 

It says on his army papers that when he left the army he was remaining in India. 

If anyone finds a birth/marriage or even census entry for William that would be wonderful.  I would also like to try and locate his father William Robert Swaby but I know nothing more about him except for the fact that I can't find a marriage, death or census entry for a William Robert Swaby. 

I have ruled out the William Swaby b. 1843 in St Pancras.

His character throughout his career was exemplary and he died in 1924 in India, I have a letter from his wife telling her daughters about his passing.  I have his army records.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts/suggestions or comments.  MyGenes

[Martin17]

Hi Mygenes 2006

I do not have the answer to your inquiry, but I take it you have you have looked at various spellings of the surname Swaby.

I have a male Swaby marry into my line in 1855. I had seen his surname recorded as Swayby and Swabey, before I finally settled on Swaby after further research.

Good luck with your search

Regards

Martin 17

[avm228]

Hi

You mention the father's details from the 1885 marriage certificate.  Do you have the certificate for William's earlier marriage, to Martha?  Is there any additional clue on there regarding William's father?  Who were the witnesses?

Anna

[O1dgobbo]

Hi

You do not say why you have ruled out William Swaby, born 1843 in St Pancras (Births Apr-Jun 1843 St Pancras 1 321).  I wondered if the reason was the death of a William Swaby in the same quarter (Deaths Apr-Jun 1843 St Pancras 1 295)?  If you have the birth certificate for that William Swaby what were the names of the parents?  It is possible that they continued trying to have a son and when successful also christened him William - this happened about this time in my tree where one couple were desperate to have a son that they could name Henry after his father.

You mention that William had a daughter, Minnie, born in Dover to his first wife Martha.  I found a Minnie Swaby, born in Dover in 1877 (Births Oct-Dec 1877 Dover 2a 954).  Is this the right Minnie?

Have you got a time line for his various military postings?

Sorry to start with so many questions but perhaps we will get to answers eventually!

All the best

Gobbo

[Mygenes2006]

Oooh lots of questions, will try and answer them all as am eager for all help and assistance offered.

With regards to the spelling of the surname I've tried Swabey, Swaby and doing searches using Swa* and not turned up anything.  Anyone who thinks they may have found a match please let me know and I will happily check it out. 

I don't have a certificate for Williams earlier marriage to Martha, I have never been able to locate the marriage, it is possible they married overseas.  I know the 61st Gloucesters Regiment were located in the following locations on the following dates:-

The movements of the 61st South Gloucestershire Regiment and 2nd Battalion, The Gloucestershire Regiment between 1861 and 1893:-

Devonport – 26th February 1861
Aldershot – 20th August 1861
Channel Islands – 20th February 1863
Ireland – 12th August 1864
Newfoundland - 26th September 1866
Quebec – 14th October 1866
Bermuda – 22nd October 1866
Nova Scotia – 24th December 1870
Ireland – 29th June 1872
Channel Islands – 26th June 1875
Aldershot – 27th May 1876
Dover – 23rd July 1877
Malta – 21st February 1878
Bombay – 8th September 1880
Quetta – 29th October 1880
Karachi – 1st March 1883
Poona – 6th November 1884
Ahmednagar – 1st July 1885
Poona – 1st January 1888
Bombay – 11th February 1888
Nasirabad – 9th March 1891
Aden – 27th October 1893
Devonport – 28th November 1894

The information was kindly sent to me by David Read at the museum.  These dates tie in with Minnie's birth in 1877 in Dover.   I believe William may have transfered to 2nd Battalion Welsh Regiment in 1892/93 in order to remain in India where he was to stay until his death in 1924. 

The witnesses at his second marriage were an L Witkowski and his wife L A Witkowski (this turned out to be his second wifes sister and her husband), A S Connor (her mother) and W Faithful as yet unidentified.  There is no other clue to his father other than the name William Robert Swaby and the fact that he hasn't put him as deceased but as the marriage was overseas in Poona then its possible they didn't have to put that on there.

As to why we ruled out the William in 1843 we sent off for the death certificate of the William recorded in the same quarter and it listed that he died aged 3 weeks and as the son of Robert Swaby and Jemima Joyce Swaby who I know are a different family, or believe to be a different family.  In 1851 they didn't have a son called William just two daughters called Jemima and Emily.  There may well be a connection to my line as there are two Swaby's I found in St Pancras, one called Robert who married Jemima, the other called Henry who married Matilda.  I have traced a descendant of the latter and we have built up a family tree, he was born in 1819 in St Pancras and we think Robert was born around the same time, we believe they might be brothers although we have no proof of that, however I do know that the father of Henry was called Robert!  So its very possible.  But I stray from the matter in hand.  They do not appear to have a William Robert Swaby in there family. 

Thank you for all the responses, if I get anywhere with this I will be overjoyed but as stated previously I'm not holding my breath.  It intrigues me that I can find no mention of William in the 1851 or 1861 census, nor of his father in either of those or the 1841 census, no record of a birth for William, or a death for his father.  I have traced all the Williams with fathers called William in 1851 and ruled them all out as they are in later census records on dates when he was no longer in the country.

I do love a good mystery but have to admit this one is causing a few sleepless nights!! (the proof of which is in the time stamp on this message as I'm UK based and according to my clock on my computer its now 2.24 am).  Thank you all once again, MyGenes

[Valda]

Hi

Since Minnie's birth is not registered in the GRO indexes for England and Wales transcribed on FreeBMD then is it registered in the army indexes held at the GRO (overseas section of GRO indexes regardless of whether the 'army' event took place over seas or not)? If Minnie's birth is an army overseas registered birth, then did her parents' marriage also take place in front of an army chaplain, in which case it may also be in the army registers (not all marriages which the GRO holds have been indexed - however knowing the regiment does mean you can ask for a check in the regimental register if the marriage does not appear in the GRO index).

There is no question on an English marriage certificate asking whether a father was deceased or not. It was merely custom and practice of some officials to ask this question, or when it was supplied, whether asked for or not, they chose to put it down. The certificate format for the British in India was a copy of the English format.

Findmypast website holds the GRO army indexes.

Unfortunately where soldiers state they were born on army attestation papers can be hopelessly unreliable. The army only wanted the enlistment it wasn't interested much in the details, particularly age and background and it was happy to bend the rules for instance on age to gain the enlistment.

The lack of evidence of a William Robert Swabey's existance or William on the 1851 and 1861 censuses could indicate a possible illegitimate birth. His father may have been called William Robert or even William Roberts (no Swabey/Roberts marriage though) or these are near male relatives (including his own name) whose name/s he borrowed for his father's name on marriage. He may not have known his actual father's occupation. If his mother after his birth went onto to remarry then he might very well appear on the 1851 and 1861 census in his stepfather's surname but not necessarily as a step son/son-in-law. All of which will make him very hard to find him on a census. That's why knowing what he stated on his first marriage and if he was consistant with what he he stated on his second would be very useful to know.


Regards

Valda

[cheryle.f]

Hi mygenes...just a thought but you may find you are in the same situation I found myself in a few years ago....I lost my family for 20 years through two census time frames. I tracked back the details from the mothers marriage but for the 51 and 61 census five children  plus mother were 'missing' . It took three years of detective work . I knew they had not died as the children  all married later after these two census had taken place.  It transpired that everyone of these children married in the surname that they were born with  but for 2oyears approx 1849 to 1862 the mother was living with someone who was not her husband (who by the way had also not died!!) As a housekeeper...having five children with him but christening them all in her married name.....and on both census reports they were all reported as being in his surname!!!  Is it possible that William was born William ? (his mothers maiden name) and bought up with a different surname on the two census that you are missing....so for me the bloodline was not even real as the whole family have lived thinking their relatives were a certain line from the 1840's when in fact they were that of another local family within the same village....

Best wishes Cheryle

[Mygenes2006]

Hi Cheryle.f thanks for the reply.  I have no idea who his mother was as I can't find his birth.  If the case is the same as yours then it will be a lost hope as there must be hundreds if not thousands of Williams born around 1847.  What is bizarre is the fact that I can't find a record of his birth but am also mistified by the lack of records for his father, there is no death for a William Robert Swaby anywhere in the UK.  My only other thought would be that the parents were in India and William came over here to join up.  Again is just one of those thoughts that will never be proven but the search will continue for years to come no doubt!  Thanks again.  MyGenes

[O1dgobbo]

Hi

Sorry if I seem to have gone quiet after my list of questions but I have not forgotten you.  On the time line I was hoping to find a home visit by the Gloucestershires that overlapped a census just to check the consistency of William's account of his birth and age.  Unfortunately they did not come home until 1894 and by then I guess that William was no longer with them.

I have made four searches of the 1851 and 1861 censuses on Ancestry to try to locate William.  If he was born in 1847 his age in 1851 would have been 3 or 4: Ancestry indexes people by year of birth calculated by subtracting the recorded age from the census year - so for Ancestry he could have been born in 1847 or 1848.  Thus my first two searches were for William born in St Pancras, Middlesex, in 1847 or 1848, looking for an entry that might be a mistranscription of Swaby.  I then changed tack slightly and searched for William living in St Pancras and born in 1847 or 1848 - he could have grown up in St Pancras not knowing that he had been born elsewhere.  My most interesting find was in the 1861 census, Willliam Lewtby (RG 9/95 55 p97), on the image to my now prejudiced eye this looked like William Switby.  However, I have asked other RootsChatters to look at this and the strong conclusion is that the name is Lewsley - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,399354.msg2693412.html#msg2693412

There are two other names that perhaps should be investigated further:
1851 census William Sonney (HO 107/1496 706 p53)
1861 census William Harby (RG 9/116 79 p7)

All the best

Gobbo