Mathews family.

[nelwild]

hello,ive discovered from looking at the 1911 census that my ancestor William Spains partner was Lily Mathews born 1889 in Portsmouth.Also on the 1911 with them is their daughter Lily Spain,and Lily Mathews sister May,a general hawker born 1893 Southborough.Kent.The 1891 census tells me Lily and  Mays father was William Mathews born 1866 Knaphill,Surrey,horse dealer,mother is Ann born 1869 Maidstone.They also have a son Walter born 1887 Ealing,Hampshire.The family is living in a show???,think it says cart.Walter is a general dealer on the 1901 and living with his grandparents Charles Mathews  born 1932,Steyning,Hampshire,horse dealer and Mary born place unknown.Id very much like to find out more about this family,but so far this is all ive been able to come up with.if anyone can find the marriage,if they married,of william spain/lily mathews,william mathews/ann and charles mathews/mary id be really grateful.also any other census entries or wider info about this mathews family.I believe Mathews might be a Showfamily name,many thanks,nel.

[nelwild]

hello again,ive had another look through the census and found a Charles Mathews born place unknown,wife Mary born 1831,place unknown and seven children,all born place unknown living in travelling wagons.I think the daughter Phoeba married a licenced hawker called Henry Newlands j/a/s 1870 Tonbridge.They are in caravans on later census.Theyre son Henry born c1871,Ripley or Woking married Hannah Brazil born 1874 Kingston on Thames j/a/s 1890 Ticehurst.Back on the 1861 entry for Charles Mathews,they have with them an Alfred Aires born 1821 unknown,wife and two kids names not given,birthplaces unknown.To me,the surname on the actual image doesnt look like Aires,more like Davis or something like that.Im wondering if theyre related.If anyone can add to any of this,or recognises any of the families and knows if they had any history of marrying in to each other id be grateful,thanks,nel.

[Steve G]

  Blimey, Nel; Steady on! Your posts there have my head spinning! And, no, I haven't been near The Book either. Didn't need to. You're on my ground here! 'Mind you; More questions than answers though ..... Where to start?

 Mathews is a name known all round the central / south eastern counties. Brazil is an extremely well known one too. Same area. Same for Aires / Ayres what ever. So, ye've really got the look of three 'local' families turning up exactly where ye'd expect them there.

 Unfortunately, I can't give ye any more on the inter marriage frame work because I'm not related so don't know. Once again, this is where I'd always suggest throwing it out onto the " Romany Jib " (or what ever it is) site. I've mentioned it elsewhere on here. It's more 'network' orientated that Roots.

 Steyning? The only Steyning I know is in West Sussex. Just south west of Henfield. But it's still east of Worthing. Can't see how they made in Hampshire, as late as 1932. Wonder if I'm missing something? Just curious.

 'Best of all' though, for me, is Ticehurst. One of mine was born there. The place seems about as synonymous with Gypsys as Appleby!

 Sorry if I haven't exactly told ye anything, Nel. Only, I'll be about as interested to hear more on this one as you'll be. I'm especially intrigued by Ticehurst. Some sort of Mecca, in its day. I wonder why?

 Vince ....?
 

[nelwild]

Hello Steve,many thanks for that.Ithink your right about the Romany Jib site,probabably better for chatting about family networks.Im hoping that a more skilled researcher than myself can come up with partners for some of the people ive mentioned,ive had a look myself but im not renowned for my researching abilities.I seem to have a knack of missing quite a lot.Im pretty excited about what ive discovered here as its off my home territory of Kent.My William Spain was a horse dealer,and he and Lily were living in Kent on the 1911,there daughter Lily was born at Clapham Hill,Whitstable, in 1911,not sure where that is yet,and the census doesnt say what their accomodation is.Ive recently found Williams grave in Whitstable cemetary close to my g grandmothers,i dont know how i missed it before as its an 8ft marble cross.Sorry ive digressed a bit.Im going to have another search for some of the partners to see if ive been true to form(night time refreshment doesnt help the old concentration).Theres a couple of other names in the Newland Family that im stuck on,the first being a possibility for Henry Newlands father and sibling,i believe its the 1851,could be the 61,Samuel Newland born 1827,Horsted Keynes,Sussex, traveller with Newland b1847 Beeding Upper,Sussex and Newland b1850,East Grinstead,living in carts.The youngsters are a girl and a boy,cant remember which is which but both would fit Henrys approx birth date.This Samuel is on the 1881 born Horsted,Cambridgeshire living with Charlotte Proudley and her two kids,shes a hawker,as is he.Ive also searched for Hannah(anna) Brazil,wife of Henry Newland,given she married at 16,the only option is the 1881,and the only possibility i can find is Joana(anna?) Brazil bi877 Hastings on 1881,daughter of William Brazil,flower hawker and roundabout proprietor and Maria Ripley.This family are in caravans on 1891/1901 with lots more kids but no sign of Joanna.I might start another thread for them.Sorry ive gone on a bit,i tend to get a bit carried away.If you want to disect any of this and discuss certain bits id be more than happy and would value any thoughts and opinions,speak to you soon,Nel.

[Steve G]

Clapham Hill, Whitstable, not sure where that is yet, and the census doesn't say what their accomodation is.

  Ok, Nell, my rapid fire little fruit cake; I'm going to slow ye down by dint of chopping up ye breathless gush of information. That way, my head doesn't spin and you get some answers 

Clapham Hill, Whitstable, Kent.

 See how nicely it's placed too? Just outside the main body of the town, where they won't bother, or be bothered by, the towns folk. But, close enough that it's only a quick spin to do some Hawking or what ever in the town anyway.

 Their camp would likely have been on the side of the hill, overlooking that nice, handy old 'main' road too

 Accommodation? I'd imagine they'd have had a wagon? I seem to recall that was in the time when most had. Wouldn't like to be quoted on that. But, I think so. I wasn't there, of course 

[Steve G]

I've recently found Williams grave in Whitstable cemetery close to my g grandmothers, I don't know how i missed it before as its an 8ft marble cross.

 Aha! He didn't exactly leave them destitute then? Sounds like, as I suspected, he was a bit of a serious Horse Dealer. In which case, I'd say they almost certainly would have had wagons. Blimey; I can picture that camp right now! 

(night time refreshment doesnt help the old concentration).

 Tell me about it, Nel! I start draining glasses as soon as I've fed the Dogs and horses. This is why I'm capable of espousing such absolute drivel by around midnight! Always best to catch me earlier! 

 Anyway, ever onwards. Let's take another look at hat ye have to say there .....

[Steve G]

There's a couple of other names in the Newland Family that I'm stuck on. The first being a possibility for Henry Newlands father and sibling. I believe it's the 1851, could be the 1861:

Samuel Newland. Born 182, at Horsted Keynes, Sussex. Said to be a  traveller, in company with with (Forename illegible) Newland. Born in 1847 at Upper Beeding, Sussex.

 Also with (Forename, again, illegible) Newland. Born in 1850, at East Grinstead. These three were living in carts.

The youngsters are a girl and a boy. I cant remember which is which (Not that that matters, as I can't work out what either of their names are, anyway) but both would fit Henrys approx birth date.

This Samuel (Who I've just snatched out of the air, to really mess with ye head) is on the 1881.  Born Horsted, Cambridgeshire. Now living with Charlotte Proudley and her two kids. Charlotte's a Hawker, as is Samuel.

 Ok. Ye 'not sure' if ye talking about the 1851 or the 1861 Census? Might be an idea to re check and make a note on paper. Even print off the pages. That way ye can hold one in each hand and glance from one to the other.

 I do that. I find it a lot easier to retain my original thought, without clicking, loading, backing, loading, clicking ..... then finding myself wondering what in hell I was trying to achieve in the first place, half an hour ago.


 Horsted Keynes? That, Steyning, Upper Beeding, East Grinstead. They're all within a neighbourly distance of one another. I wonder if your people ever met mine? My lot used to travel between Poole and Brighton, as a rule. Anyway, plenty of scope for these folk to come together as they travelled and worked that part of Sussex.

 What's that 182 about? Your cock up, or mine?


 Samuel; Man of mystery. He crops up just to throw a spanner into my perfectly oiled works, doesn't he? " Horsted, Cambridgeshire " ? Leave it out! Just so happens there is a bloody Horsted, in Cambridgeshire. But, I'll tell ye what though? I'm ready to bet he'd actually  told the Enumerator " Horsted Keynes and the Enumerator thought he'd heard, " Horsted, Cambs ". Maybe one or the other of them were 'Well Oiled' that night too?


 Now; Tell us more about Charlotte Proudly and so on ....?

[Steve G]

  Stroke of luck here, Nel!

 " JONES, otherwise PROUDLY  COR/1/4/248  28 Jun 1918

Contents:
Jeanette, wife of Izaac, gypsy, no fixed abode, died at Chelwood Common, Maresfield, 70 "

 Just this minute found that, perfectly by chance, whilst perusing the East Sussex Coroners Office Reports ~ as one does .....  Here.

 So, now ye know the Sussex Proudly's also used the name " Jones " 

[nelwild]

Steve,many thanks for all this,where do i start?Sorry about the over enthusiasm,i do tend to spout a lot in one go.Ive had another look on the 1911,this time for Williams Father William George.Hes also at Clapham Hill,but his address is Ivy House,a dwelling of 5 rooms,so not very big.He still has his daughter Elizabeth with him,and a new partner Maud Mary born 1878,Ramsgate.William jnr,wife,daughter and sister in law are at same address but entered seperatley from main dwelling,so its possible they were in a caravan.Lilys parents definatly lived in one,but William snr was in houses up to 1901.Whats curious is that he seems to start travelling about after 1901,and his Romany links seem to get stronger.His daughter Elizabeth married a third generation horse dealer from Swansea,so he had Welsh contacts,and William married Lily,a traveller from central southern england.William George does appear to have been successful at horse dealing,his memorial is the crying horse ive mentioned before.Im getting the feeling that as his reputation grew,so the travellers,always wary of outsiders,trusted him more.William Georges Father,also a horse dealer called William,seems to have had an even bigger reputation,as he was described as "a big jobber from Ramsgate" at William Georges horse theft trial at the old bailey in 1884.sorry,gone off on another tangent.Thanks for the Proudly tip.Im going to have another look at the census to see if i can find any partners,nel.