Author Topic: Thomas Bell of county Kildare  (Read 7271 times)

Offline hallmark

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Re: Thomas Bell of county Kildare
« Reply #9 on: Friday 13 March 20 14:32 GMT (UK) »


I do apologize!   ;D  ;D

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Offline Monty128

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Re: Thomas Bell of county Kildare
« Reply #10 on: Friday 13 March 20 14:37 GMT (UK) »
No need any help is gratefully received but who did John born 1693 marry. Was it the Bell girl

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Re: Thomas Bell of county Kildare
« Reply #11 on: Friday 13 March 20 14:45 GMT (UK) »


It doesn't say....

Did his father Hercules leave a Will?

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Offline Monty128

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Re: Thomas Bell of county Kildare
« Reply #12 on: Friday 13 March 20 14:49 GMT (UK) »
I have no idea anybody else !!!!!

In the meantime I have left an unknown in the tree



Offline hallmark

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Re: Thomas Bell of county Kildare
« Reply #13 on: Friday 13 March 20 15:21 GMT (UK) »


They are very complicated....  Hugh M son of Hercules Montgomery married a Ms Willoughby and he had to take her name, Mr Willoughby. They had "Willoughby" children.

 
I gave up on them!   ;D

Elizabeth "Willoughby" marrying here is daughter of Hugh "Montgomery" Willoughby   ;D ;D




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Offline Mimble

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Re: Thomas Bell of county Kildare
« Reply #15 on: Friday 13 March 20 16:17 GMT (UK) »
Dear Monty
Thanks for raising this most fascinating family to which I have devoted a considerable amount of time and research. I have been to study the Faulkner Papers at the National Library in Dublin and have made some interesting discoveries. One of the main ones is that you can't trust memoirs! As always they have some truth, some fiction and some half remembered or misunderstood facts.

Having looked extensively but unsuccessfully for the Bell sisters I have come to the conclusion that they were invented to cover up a couple of illegitimacies which have come to light through studying primary documents. (However they may still come to light in some other related role, who knows?)

The main facts that you have been given are correct, however I do not believe that Nancy Faulkner was the mother of our John the Settler's father. Having looked at letters and documents relating to John of Naas, I believe that neither of his sons called John was the Settler's father. The first son, John died in infancy, and this is testified to in that early letters refer to the second son Samuel as the eldest. The second John Burgh died in prison as a notorious criminal - he was definitely not the Settler's father. Therefore I believe that the settler's father may have been the illegitimate son of John of Naas' sister Betty, who may have been brought up and educated 'to the Law' by John of Naas and who may have encouraged his son, John the settler, to call John of Naas Grandfather.

Betty's child is referred to in a letter written about John of Naas three years before his marriage, and does not appear in any of the documents relating to the family at The Knocks where John of Naas and Nancy Faulkner lived. To me this is the most likely person to be John the Settler's father.

As for the earlier John born 1693, apparently he became a Quaker, which is why he was disinherited. I don't know any more about his family yet, except that they were associated with his Hunckes Quaker cousins. His son William b. 1717, father of John of Naas, was a colourful character. He became ill and his wife left him, he was seduced by Sarah Hardy of Loughgall and the couple eloped and settled in Derryloran where John of Naas was born (illegitimately). The Faulkner family were somewhat dismayed when their daughter Nancy wanted to marry John of Naas, understandably with that background, so they seem to have reinvented him after three years as being 'of Crumlin', where there was a large Montgomery family of notable origins. Interestingly though, the Crumlin Montgomerys traced their coat of arms from a different branch. John of Naas seems to have followed the Ballyleck Montgomery crest, who were cousins of his.

It is a fascinating family with much more to find out, a number of ‘gateway’ ancestors, stately homes to visit, some famous descendants and many back stories. I can email you my write up so far, please contact me if you'd like to ask any questions.
Mary
Morgan, Wilcox, Hulbert, Olive - Gloucestershire; Diggines, Gill, Rivers, Bull, Powell, Howell - Bristol; Hulley, Cawood - Yorkshire and South Africa; Stedman,  Hamar, Luther - Shropshire; Staddon, Rawle, Richards, Kemp -  West Somerset; Jones - Bettws, Montgomeryshire and Mainstone, Shropshire; Williams - Beguildy, Radnorshire; Coleman - Kent; Gradwell, Strickland - Lancashire;  Moodie -  Orkneys; Montgomery - Armagh, Down and Kildare; Parke - Kildare and Wicklow; Brangan - Bandon, Cork.

Offline Mimble

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Re: Thomas Bell of county Kildare
« Reply #16 on: Friday 13 March 20 16:20 GMT (UK) »
Our Montgomerys are descended from Hugh Montgomery (known as Hugh Ballylessan Montgomery to distinguish him from a number of other Hugh Montgomerys)  who was the son of George Montgomery , brother of the 2nd Viscount Montgomery of the Great Ards. George’s father was 1st Viscount and one of the leaders of the Plantation of Ulster. This very prominent and important family is described in The Montgomery Manuscripts by William Montgomery of Rosemount, writing in 1696 – 1706. https://archive.org/details/montgomerymanusc00montuoft . This author was cousin of Hugh of Ballylessan Montgomery so knew the family personally and was writing a contemporary account. The account goes right back to the founding of the settlement in Ulster in the times of the Plantation in 1603.
Hugh married, first, Lavinia Mary Hunckes, only daughter of Col Hercules Hunckes. Their son was Hercules, after his mother’s father, who married Jane McNeill. It is this branch of the family that we are descended from. There were Hunckes living near John of Naas who called him ‘cousin’. (Col Hunckes has a fascinating story as he was one of those responsible for killing Charles I when Cromwell gave the order to have him killed, so he was known as ‘the regicide’. However, he apparently refused the order to kill the king so was subsequently pardoned. The Hunckes, later Hanks, family is a fascinating one and Abraham Lincoln’s mother was a Hanks.). 
Hugh Ballylessan married, secondly, the widow of Lord Blaney, who was also related to and the widow of Hugh Willoughby of Carrow. He took the name of Willoughby to inherit his wife’s family manor house and lands of  Carrow (a large estate in Co Fermanagh).  His son Hugh Willoughby married a daughter of Earl Erne of Crom Castle on the banks of Loch Erne  http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/crom . One of their daughters, Elizabeth, married into the family of the first Baron Mountflorence of Florence Court , John Cole, http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/florence-court ; Another daughter, Catherine,  married  Alexander Montgomery of Ballyleck, also associated with the Cole family.  From  https://moultray.wordpress.com/tag/ballyleck/ : “Colonel Alexander Montgomery m. Elizabeth daughter and heiress of Colonel Thomas Cole of Ballyleck prior to 1696 and died march 25th 1722 leaving several children. It was probably early in this century that Alexander and his cousin appeared to have disused the Hessilheid arms and to have adopted the shield of the Montgomeries as carried by the Earls of Eglington, adding thereto instead of the Scottish crest an arm in armor the hand grasping a broken spear and for a motto instead of the Scottish “Guarde Bien”, the new words “Patrise Infelici Fedelis”. “
 
(This is the coat of arms and crest used by John Montgomery of Naas as seen in his house at The Knocks. This suggests that his father William was in touch with his cousins and adopted the Ballyleck version of the crest.)
The third daughter married Cromwell Price, and their daughter married a McNeill cousin, descendent of Hercules and Jane.
Morgan, Wilcox, Hulbert, Olive - Gloucestershire; Diggines, Gill, Rivers, Bull, Powell, Howell - Bristol; Hulley, Cawood - Yorkshire and South Africa; Stedman,  Hamar, Luther - Shropshire; Staddon, Rawle, Richards, Kemp -  West Somerset; Jones - Bettws, Montgomeryshire and Mainstone, Shropshire; Williams - Beguildy, Radnorshire; Coleman - Kent; Gradwell, Strickland - Lancashire;  Moodie -  Orkneys; Montgomery - Armagh, Down and Kildare; Parke - Kildare and Wicklow; Brangan - Bandon, Cork.

Offline hallmark

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Re: Thomas Bell of county Kildare
« Reply #17 on: Friday 13 March 20 19:35 GMT (UK) »


Hercules M who married Jane Mc Neil was  "Hercules M of Ballylissan"  so was her mother Ann McNeill nee Montgomery?


https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSN1-JSD4?i=474&cat=185720




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