Author Topic: Help Finding my Grandfather  (Read 5264 times)

Offline markey164

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Help Finding my Grandfather
« on: Friday 30 October 09 16:26 GMT (UK) »

Hello, can anyone help. I'm looking for my grandfather, but unfortunately my grandparents separated when my mum was fairly young, so we only know limited details. This is what we know.

* Birthplace is listed as Poplar on my mum's birth certificate.
* His name was supposedly John Alfred Barrett. This is on his marriage and death certificate. I say 'supposedly' because we are wondering if he quietly put the John in front of it, because he didn't like the name Alfred. I don't think people checked things like this in those days.
* I found his death record which lists his birthday is 11 Oct 1918. We know this must be the right record, because the birth day and month is right but we never knew the year for sure. I also can't find a birth record to tie in with this. The only close one is an Alfred Barrett born Poplar in the Jan/Feb/Mar index of 1918 which doesn't match his birth day/month?

This is what leads us to wonder if 1) he changed his name slightly 2) his birth year on his death certificate is incorrect by one year?

Q1: If you are born in Oct 1917, can that person be listed in the following Jan/Feb/Mar 1918 index? or will he appear on Oct/Nov/Dec 1917 index no matter what? I'm not sure how this bit works if for example he is registered late.

Q2: where do they get the birth year from, when they fill out the death certificate?

If anyone can find some more clues to help with this it would be greatly appreciated :o)

TIA

Mark

Offline avm228

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Re: Help Finding my Grandfather
« Reply #1 on: Friday 30 October 09 16:36 GMT (UK) »
Hello Mark

The dates you find in GRO indexes (e.g. Jan-Mar qtr 1918) are dates of registration, not birth.

Registration is required to take place within 6 weeks (42 days) of a birth.  So a child born on 11 October should have been registered before the end of the same calendar year and thus in the Oct-Dec qtr.  However, as we all know people do not always meet deadlines!  A late registration of an October birth might well have taken place in the first quarter of the following year.

Ages on death certificates are notoriously unreliable as they depend on the memory/knowledge of the informant of the death (often a grieving relative). As you say, in many families the birthday is known but surviving relatives can be a little hazy as to the year of birth.  Many errors have crept in to death certificates in this way.

Was your grandfather known as John, or Alfred?

Anna
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline carol8353

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Re: Help Finding my Grandfather
« Reply #2 on: Friday 30 October 09 16:37 GMT (UK) »
HI there

To answer your last question first. A date of birth on a death cert is only as good as the person giving that info. So if it wasn't a close member of the family,or even if it was but he didn't tell them his exact year of birth then it could be a few years out.

You have (and had ) 6 weeks to register the birth of a baby so a birth of 11th October to being registered after Xmas is probably stretching it. Is it likely his parents weren't married and therefore his birth was regsitered in mum's maiden name?

Carol
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline carol8353

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Re: Help Finding my Grandfather
« Reply #3 on: Friday 30 October 09 16:42 GMT (UK) »
Who did he marry and when? Do you have their marriage cert-so we could try and find his parents? It would mention his dad's name and job.

PLease make sure you don't mention any names on Rootschat of people who are still alive though.

There is a birth of a John A Barrett in Poplar in the Dec 1/4 of 1922,making his age 4 years out on death? A possible perhaps?

Carol
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Offline avm228

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Re: Help Finding my Grandfather
« Reply #4 on: Friday 30 October 09 16:46 GMT (UK) »
* His name was supposedly John Alfred Barrett. This is on his marriage and death certificate.


What was his age at marriage?
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline markey164

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Re: Help Finding my Grandfather
« Reply #5 on: Friday 30 October 09 17:00 GMT (UK) »
Hi,

Thank you for the tips so far.

Answers to the questions so far.

Regarding the info provided for the death certificate, it would probably have been given by someone who only knew him in his later years, eg 2nd wife or partner (we don't even know if they were married), so there is every chance the exact birth year on it is incorrect.

In answer to what he was known as, my mum said he was always called Jimmy by his friends lol which doesn't help. But his first real name was always thought to be John, and this is what is on his marriage and birth certificate. He was never known as Alfred, although my mum is under the impression this was always his middle name, and this is recorded as such on his marriage and death certificate. Not that this means this is the case of course. We think he just added the John and put Alfred as his middle name, but we just don't know for sure.

We don't actually have the marriage certificate, but we found the marriage record in the overseas military marriage records (he was in the army). We know this is the right record as it was the right year and location, and an unusual spouses maiden name and it all matches perfectly. Perhaps we should order a copy to see the extra details and verify the father's name, assuming it was entered on this non UK registered wedding?

Thanks for the info on the 1922 birth. I dont think we found that one. Yes it is certainly possible.

By the sounds of it, we should probably order a copy of the marriage certificate first, and see what that gives us?

Offline markey164

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Re: Help Finding my Grandfather
« Reply #6 on: Friday 30 October 09 17:01 GMT (UK) »
* His name was supposedly John Alfred Barrett. This is on his marriage and death certificate.


What was his age at marriage?

It doesn't say on the army returns marriage index unfortunately. I think we need to order a copy of this first perhaps?

I'm not sure you'll find the marriage record either, as i had to pay to look at loads of army indexes, on findmypast.com i think it was, before we found it.

Offline avm228

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Re: Help Finding my Grandfather
« Reply #7 on: Friday 30 October 09 17:01 GMT (UK) »

By the sounds of it, we should probably order a copy of the marriage certificate first, and see what that gives us?

Yes :)
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline markey164

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Re: Help Finding my Grandfather
« Reply #8 on: Friday 30 October 09 19:12 GMT (UK) »

By the sounds of it, we should probably order a copy of the marriage certificate first, and see what that gives us?

Yes :)

Hmm, on requesting an overseas marriage certifiate, there is only a single field asking for the GRO index number. It is different to the normal GRO index fields.

However on the army overseas marriage index we found, it only gives the names, the year, the station name, and a page number. There is no 'vol' number, and no index number as such. Should we just enter all the information we have in the GRO index field? I'm sure that should be enough? I just don't want to lose the money if they say we've filled the form in wrong?