Carrolls and McCarrolls - somewhere to start...

[jj.carroll]

  Tony, the thing is, as I have often observed, it could very well be that this was the Michael Joseph Carroll, who was born McCarroll and was to become McCarroll again.  There are just too many scriviner's errors in all of this search to discount it because there is a ten-year discrepancy in the age.  After all - it was only one digit and it could be a transcriber's error.

Liverpool was a likely site to land, rather than Cobh, for the Irishman from Ulster,  Many of them did because at that time there was a lot of traffic between that area (and Scotland) and Ulster, what with a lack of employment.  Considerable traffic flowed between Liverpool and Moville and New York, not so much with Philadelphia which was on the Queenstown run.  The problem is that there is a paucity of manifests available to look at, as well as the errors that have been made.

While it could be Mickey, the time lag is pretty great for a young lady to pine for her beau (12/1908 to 7/1912), but then who knows because  her father, John Gaffigan, was a bit off his tracks.

jj

[jj.carroll]

Tony -

Perhaps you have gotten as old as I am, but you have not left the board.  I hope so.  I do want to follow up on that last posting here, where you have found a Michael J. Carroll arriving in Liverpool, but with an age that was ten years senior.

If that is the Micky that went to San Francisco (to be with his brother, in the grocer's there), dropped the Mac until he returned to Ireland and operated the public house in Fintona, and assumed the Mc for his name again - it was a scrivener's error - and this could have been my grandfather.

Where was he going (and where had he come from, if the data shows that) when he landed in Liverpool, and what were the dates?

As I stated before I left the boards, "Liverpool was a likely site to land, rather than Cobh, for the Irishman from Ulster,  Many of them did because at that time there was a lot of traffic between that area (and Scotland) and Ulster, what with a lack of employment.  Considerable traffic flowed between Liverpool and Moville..." (in northern Ireland, a place used for transport) "...and New York, not so much with Philadelphia which was on the Queenstown run.  The problem is that there is a paucity of manifests available to look at, as well as the errors that have been made."

I would like to think that this Micky McCarroll (named Michael J. Carroll, and I am a "Joseph") was my grandfather, but cannot conclude that is so.  The fact that Micky did leave San Francisco and my grandmother (Agnes Bridget Gaffigan {who had some Amos})did follow him at least to Cobh manifest). Cobh was the port for Queensland, at that time.  What we do know is that the two of them ended up in County Louth, and got married in the Cathedral there (marriage license), but somehow we don't have information on the banns.

Then the two of them ended up in Omagh (before going on to Fintona) and had a child there.  That child was also a Michael J. McCarroll, and my father.  They then left for Fintona, operating a public house as well as being a merchant.  After his death in I believe 1924 Agnes and the children did return to San Francisco.

jj.carroll

[Sinann]

Tony was last here in March 2017 perhaps he isn't get notifications from this thread, it might be worth sending him a PM.

[jj.carroll]

  Thank you for your response, as well as your suggestion.  jj.carroll

What I was wondering was what ship was this Michael J. McCarroll on, whether it docked at Moville.

I don't have the capacity of following all of these references, but it did appear likely that a scriveners error took place.  What we need to know, to lock it down a bit, is the dates that are involved.  For example, Agnes Bridget Gaffigan docked at Cobh and was the place of departure before or after that point.  We do know that Aggie B. actually went after Michael.  And we know that her first born was nearly two years past the meeting in Ireland.  So, it wasn't a question of premature pregnancy.

Again, thank you! 

[jj.carroll]

Actually, because I have missed probably the most important thing and discussed other things the response was muddled. 

The Michael J. Carroll that is referenced in Tony's synopsis, whether or not it was a scriveners error that would place the two ten years apart, is even more basic than that.  Whether it was an error on the part of the transcriber or not, it could not have been involved in the "marriage go round" that brought Agnes Bridget to Ireland from San Francisco to marry Michael J. Carroll.  This occurred in 1908 and the marriage occurred in 1912. 

So, we have to look for another reason for the trip that allegedly ended in Liverpool (and not Moville, as questioned).  While Michael had gone to San Francisco to be with his brothers (Thomas and Patrick) in their grocer business, I believe that he had become a U.S. citizen some time after the Great Quake (somewhere we have a reference, and it had occurred in 1906).  It could very well be that he returned because his business was good and he wanted a holiday there for his mother.

Because there has been some suspicion regarding the demise of Patrick (the Yank), and his headstone is in the Eskragh cemetery, there is that to be considered also.

We need to do more research to see if there was a ship back to the States, sometime after 1908. 

jj.carroll

[jj.carroll]

Hi Tony, or to anyone that wishes to join this discussion.

You made the startling discovery that Agnes Bridget Gaffigan had made landfall in Ireland in 1912 while chasing Michael Joseph McCarroll.  You could not follow up on whether the two of them traveled together.

Then you made another startling discovery, that there was a McCarroll that landed in Liverpool, but in 1908 - and, he was ten years older than my grandfather so it might not be the one we are seeking.  But that could have been a transcriber's error; it did not address the 1908 and 1912 dichotomy.

While I may have opined that Mickey (or Micky) could have traveled back and forth, at least to visit his siblings and mother what "proof" could I posit?  The best that I could come up with was the travels of Patrick, back and forth, between San Francisco and Eskragh.  But wait, what did happen to Patrick that could have gotten Michael to return to Ireland.  This grave stone that I had assumed was "the Yank's" showed that he died in 1912, and he was buried in Eskragh's cemetery, in a grave that was in close proximity to my McCarrolls.

It could have been that Micky was in Ireland during the final days,  or visited upon the death of his brother.  Well, they are likely to have happened that way.  But wait, where is Agnes Bridget in all of this?  Could it be that Micky was going to stay in County Tyrone (Omagh, Fintona or Eskragh) and he pined for his lady friend?

He could have sent for Agnes, and even paid for her way.

They met and then went on to Dundalk and got married in the Cathedral.  They then left and stayed in Omagh (Georges Street?), where he was a "saloon keeper" - not as a publican as they are referred to in Ireland.  They had a child in 1914, who was my father.

At least, it seems plausible - now for some research to fill in the blanks.

jj.carroll

[hallmark]

You started a new thread here...

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=801580.0


...in what appears to be a continuation of this thread!!