Carrolls and McCarrolls - somewhere to start...

[TF13]

Hi Tony,

It is a problem when one moves from a specific example and generalizes it to something that really could not stand up to scrutiny for every case.     Nor did you make it such a general rule, but it must be realized that there were some that named their children after saints, and those sanctified persons would of course be Irish. There were still many Roman Catholics, even in the enlightened 1800's (?), and even today, that would never, ever name their child after that good queen Bess.  While it is good that you would posit that changes were afoot around that time I will stand by the statement that one needs to look into that matter. 

Hi jj,
you asked a general question about the name Elizabeth and I gave a general answer which I still stand by. If I can word it another way then I would say that Elizabeth would be a normal name for a catholic girl but also a normal name for a non-catholic girl.
What I am trying to say is that you should not ignore any possible connections to your family,which is what you appear to say in your original post, on the basis that a name appears to you to be catholic/non catholic.Of course look into the matter and ask questions,no one is saying that you shouldn't.
Regarding the "enlightened" 1800's I would say that there was more chance of a girl being named Elizabeth after John the Baptist's mother rather than the Queen Elizabeth. Just my opinion though

Tony

[jj.carroll]

  My grandfather was to return to Ireland, sometime around 1912.  Either with or later, Agnes Bridget Gaffigan, who was born in San Francisco, followed him (they evidently had met in The City! a home to lots of Irishmen from Ulster) and they were married in St. Patrick's at Dundalk.  We can't locate the Banns to tell us anything else about their wedding, which raised a number of questions that are not asked here. 

They "probably" lived in Omagh because my father was born there in 1914, but moved to, or were residents of Fintona.  Probable means you have to look further. They purchased the pub on Main Street which later was next door to McCarroll's Furniture.  This could give the searcher a lead to begin her search because these McCarroll's were not from my immediate family and when they began their operation I really don't know. 

My grandparent’s public house was also used for auctioneering of horses, sale of shoes in the room under the stairs, and the sale of coffins.  Francis McAtee later bought the place when my grandfather became ill and was to die in 1924.  The obituary from the Tyrone Constitution gives clues to cousins and others in attendance, but there will be no females listed in that era.
 
There were a number of McCarroll's that lived in Fintona around the 1920's (if we were in that century), as there were lots also living around Eskra (which is the unofficial placename for most of the Catholic parish - although Newtown Saville more properly should be as it existed long before Eskragh came about).  And a lot of them owned and operated public houses (one of my cousins owned a public house in Curr, and Andrew McCarroll owned the pub at the Bridge in Eskra). 
 
School records are valuable for the search of ancestors.  In fact there was another Maggie McCarroll, who was born around 1907, that went to school with my father in Fintona, and she also came from Eskra.  I wonder which pub he owned as her father was also listed a publican in Fintona.  Could there be any connection with this searcher?  Heck, we really don't know.  Well, if that wasn't a relative, how about Mary McCarroll who entered school at age 11 from Mountstewart (that is a townland south of Fintona) that came from Legmaghery and her father was a farmer.  She also went to school with my father, but probably was not in the same grade (but she had a sister Rose!).
 
In looking at census data, you really have to know what it is that you are looking for.  For example, the addresses are not the same thing that we have here in the states, and most probably in Fintona.  Take the 1901 census for Corkhill which shows two entries for the Devin's (sic) and two for McCarroll's.  (Devin is the Ulster pronunciation for Devine and they are cousins, or “friends” according to the late Maggie Tyghe.)  But their "addresses" were given as "1 and 2" and "11 and 12".  That may relate only to when the households were visited by the census enumerator.  Catherine McCarroll, my great great grandmother lived at "number 11" for the 1901 census but it was a different “address” number for the Griffith's "census."
 
O. K., what does this all mean?
 
Simply, there is no easy way to look for your ancestors.  You piece together one thing and then another and finally come to a conclusion that perhaps this is the way to go.  Then something else comes into focus that leads into another direction.  Over the years I have spent a lot of time and some money (and it is now a lot more if you do go that route) gathering what I could about the relatives that may live or had lived in that area.  This searcher has only begun, and has a long way to go before she makes sense out of a lot of non-sense - but in the long run it is worth it, if for no other reason than just crossing out false leads. 

I am now just looking at the various boards and comparing things to see if they would be fruitful, but with the knowledge that I am too old to really dig into the mess that someone who was raised in a Catholic family in Ireland started.  It is fun, but never taken seriously.
 
That reminds me; watch out for the little things such as a journal that my grandmother's father kept. One of the cousins had it and gave some information to me that she believed because it was he that had written it down. He made up a lot of things, from his imagination - as well as whole cloth.  Take it all with a grain of salt.  But investigate, some of those silly little things that someone will swear is true may pay off.
 
Good Luck!

[jj.carroll]

  In order to put to rest some of the dialogue regarding first or Christian names, the Gaelic revival that took place in the late 1800's and early 1900's saw a return to fashion of many of the native Gaelic names that are drawn from the myths, legends and folklore of the Gaelic culture. 

For example, the name of “Elizabeth” comes from the Hebrew and loosely means:

“…my God is satisfaction”.

By the way, Saint Elizabeth was mother of John the Baptist.

Eliza, Liz, Elsie and Elsa are among the many variants, but the Irish equivalent or translation would be: Eilís.

There was some explanation by a Jane Lyons in a 1999 journal called Breifne (Copyright, Jane Lyons, 1999) in an article edited by Brian De Breffny that those who are interested could look up.  The URL for that article is:

myhome.ispdr.net.au/~mgrogan/cork/jane_names.htm

Jane Lyons (who is very popular on these boards) raises the point that there was some differentiation of those children born of “Irish” parents and their protestant counterparts.  Some of the favorite Irish Roman Catholic “Christian”, or first names, at that time for girls included:
Mary, Catherine, Bridget, Honora, Margaret, Ellen, Anastasia, Johanna, Judith, Julia, Rosanna, Maryanne, Elizabeth and Jane.  Less common were the names of Magdalen Monica and Theresa. Marcella was found in Ireland but was rare in England.

Favorite Protestant girl’s names seem to have been:
Mary, Sarah, Elizabeth, Eleanor, Lucy, Catherine, Susanna, Hannah, Margaret, Jane, Isabella, Frances and Alice. Less frequently: Barbara, Gertrude, Dorothea, Charlotte, Diana, Rebecca, Lydia, Race, Phoebe, Henrietta, Lettice, Ursula, Penelope, Esther and Heather.

[TF13]

  Some of the favorite Irish Roman Catholic “Christian”, or first names, at that time for girls included:
Mary, Catherine, Bridget, Honora, Margaret, Ellen, Anastasia, Johanna, Judith, Julia, Rosanna, Maryanne, Elizabeth and Jane.
Favorite Protestant girl’s names seem to have been:
Mary, Sarah, Elizabeth, Eleanor, Lucy, Catherine, Susanna, Hannah, Margaret, Jane, Isabella, Frances and Alice.

That was the point I was making jj;the name Elizabeth is not exclusive to any one religion.

Tony

by the way,there was an Agnes Gaffigan who arrived at Queenstown,26-july-1912,aged 23,aboard the White Star Line ship "Celtic".Her occupation looks something like stenographer,the word ends with grapher anyway.

[jj.carroll]

Tony, you have hit on something that we had searched and searched for, the arrival of Agnes Bridget Gaffigan.  While it may not be the one, and because she was "of age" when she married, the question that could seal this mystery might be answered by asking if there was a Michael Joesph Carroll, or McCarroll as the case may be, that arrived with her.

Inasmuch as I have been on various internet boards, and have had a number of computer crashes and different providers, I cannot recall just when I had posted the inquiry regarding their marriage.  But it is somewhere, and the problem came about because we did not know how it was they got married in Dundalk when all of their connections were here in Tyrone.

It gives me something more to look for to settle, maybe, the question of how she came over to get married.

jj

[jj.carroll]

Tony, and the Board.

One of the reasons why I could not find information on my posting was that it resided in the County Louth board.  Because there is so much going on in these Irish questions and look-ups it is hard to recall just where you could post.

At least here we have found that particular thread and can pursue it as far as it may reach - which may not give us satisfactory answers.  But, like I have said, the search is still interesting, informative and quite satisfying.

This posting was to Louth because that was where they were married and we were looking for the Banns. 

Again, thak you Tony.

[TF13]

jj,
no sign of Michael Joseph on the same ship as that Agnes but there are others that could be him in preceding arrivals.What was his date of birth and his occupation when he got married? I realise he might have changed occupations in the meantime but you never know.

Tony

[jj.carroll]

  Thanks Tony

And I will answer here so that others can understand what the digging must be to find just a sliver of facts that we can build upon.

Michael Joseph McCarroll was born around 7 September 1879 (that comes from Baptismal Records at Clogher) to Owen McCarroll and Catherine, nee McCusker. The place of birth was the townland of Corkhill, Clogher Parish, County Tyrone.  According to the civil births he was born on 9 October 1879. 

Yes, there is a discrepancy (after all, he could not have been baptised before he was born).  Because chronological order is the way that baptisms are recorded and one has to actually produce the baby to be christened, on the whole it is more likely that dates from those church records - at this time - were more accurate.  It is possible, and in all probability, that his father Owen had failed to register the births of his children, or that he failed to do so at the proper time, he made up little white lies.  Alternatively, he quite possibly did not recall the exact dates of their births (all of the children had such discrepancies).


His occupation is a mystery because we did not know what he was doing upon his return to Ireland.  Having said that, he probably was a merchant or a publican because he was in later life.  The record of his marriage does not indicate an occupation and we can only go on these preseumptions.  While he became a publican and merchant there is only family lore to go upon as to where he got his money.  It appears that he left the San Francisco area of America (and any manifest you might find will show most probably that he was an American citizen), after arriving first about 1867, sometime about 1912.

  jj

[TF13]

jj,
I couldn't find anything definite on michael joseph.There are too many variants that could be him but I wouldn't like to say.
There was one that I thought could have been him,for a few seconds anyway;Michael J. Carroll arrived Liverpool 30-dec-1908,saloonkeeper,irish citizen,aged 39. Your Michael would have been 29 in 1908 of course, so not him, but it would have been a tidy fit.He's there somewhere!

Tony