McIntosh of Moulin & Dunkeld

[Kycowboy41]

I am looking for the parents and ancestors of one Alexander McIntosh who was born at Redgorton ( or Dull ) Perth on 14 Sep 1788

Alexander McIntosh married Elizabeth ( Ann ) Stewart 20 May 1802, These individuals appear in the 1841,1851,1861 Scottish Census and the Dunkeld Church records, together they had issue John b. 1825, Peter b 1831, Henry b 1832, Gordon b. 1 Jun 1834, Charles b. 1837, Elizabeth b 1840 and Neil b. 1843.Records show them as living in Moulin Parish Perth and Dunkeld Perth.The children appear to have all been born in Redgorton Perth. There may have been other offspring as I did not find Gordon on the census records but did find him in the IGI databases showing the correct parents and location. Charles imigrated to the US in abt 1871.

Alexander's father appears to have been John McIntosh. This John may be the son of Alexander McIntosh who married Grizel or Grissel McNab on 2 Feb 1784 . From this marriage there were 5 children including an Alexander who was born at Moulin Parish.

However, there are two John McIntoshs listed for Moulin parish and both have a son named Alexander. I am trying to make a connection to the right John.

The Charles above noted is my g.g.g.garandfather who imigrated from Dunkeld in the 1860-70's and settled into Allens Township Scott County Iowa. His sons then moved to Il. First in Rock Island Il and later Chicago.

Charles b. 1837 was married to Mary Leslie also b. 1837 and had a son named Gordon who in turn had a son Donald Scott who had a son Donald Gordon, who had a son Gordon Donald, my brother.

If you can help with any of these people it would be appreciated. Perhaps I can pin Alexander down by way of one of his brothers.

Kenneth McIntosh
Kentucky
   

[KirstyG]

Hi Kenneth, welcome to rootschat

Looking at the IGI many of the birth entries for children of Alexander McIntosh and Elisabeth Stewart are submitted. This does not mean that they are not accurate (as these seem to have dates for both birth and christening they may well be) but you should always check the originals yourself where possible.

http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/

There are other births showing on the IGI - extracted entries- for

William birth 7th March 1826 Redgorton.
James birth 7th August 1822  Redgorton

Could they also belong to your family?

There seems to be another family with the same parents names in Perthshire having children in the 1760/70/80s, and another in Angus in the early 1830s.

Given that you state Alexander married Elisabeth in 1802, to have a gap of 20 years before they have issue sounds improbable. Perhaps you made a typo?

You say you have the family in the census records. Do you know when Alexander died? If it was after 1855 then you may well get his parents names from his death certificate (if they were known by the person who registered the death)

What did the census records give as age and place of birth for Alexander?

Kirsty

[Kycowboy41]

Actually Elizabeth ( Ann ) Stewart was born in 1801 and the marriage with Alexander McIntosh took place about the 20th of May 1821. The first child of record that I have been able to document is John b. 24 May 1824. Elizabeth was born at Blair Atholl and Alexander was born Redgorton and christined at Dunkeld.

I have all sorts of census info from 1841-1861 with their details but no where in the records does it state Alexanders parents. The marriage registry from Dunkeld lists Alexander and Elizabeth as being the parents of my g.g.g.grandfather Charles who was born in 1837 and imigrated to the US in 1871. I also have the marraige registry for Charles who married Mary Leslie showing Alexander and Elizabeth as Alex's parents.

The IGI lists for Dunkeld or Moulin show two seperate Johns , both having a son Alexander who marries an Elizabeth or Elspeth. I trying to find out which John is correct.

[KirstyG]

Hi Kenneth,

Are you assuming that they followed naming traditions for Alexander's fathers name to be John, or do you have that from some other record that you have not mentioned?

Do you have a place of birth and an approximate age for Alexander from the census records, and are they consistent? There are only 5 deaths on SP for an Alexander McIntosh, one of which is in Moulin. It might be worth spending a couple of credits as the death certificate should state to whom the person was married which would confirm you have the right one. That is one of the only ways in which you can confirm you are looking at the right people.

Have you tried searching for monument inscriptions in the appropriate parishes? You might be lucky and find other family members on a headstone with Alexanders family.

It would be useful if you could state exactly what sources you have for your information to prevent duplication of effort in searching.

Kirsty

[Kycowboy41]

The name John McIntosh came from the IGI database being the father of the only Alexander listed in Moulin or Dunkeld for this time frame. I also cross checked the information in the census information.

In going through the IGI databases I also investigated the idea that Alexanders father may have had the name of one of the other male children but again this turned up no information.

The information I have on Alexander came from the marriage banns of his son Charles who married Mary Leslie at Dunkeld and the 1841 Census. Charles and Mary are further listed in the 1851 and 1861 listing their offspring.

My proposed family line is as thus...

John McIntosh b. 16 May 1708, Moulin Perth father Robert McIntosh, Mother  Jannet Rotson b. abt ?, married  ? and had issue Alexander

Alexander McIntosh who was born about 1742-4, at Dull Perthshire Scotland and married on 8 April 1763, in Logierait, Perth, Grizel ( Grissel ) McNab, who was born on 18 March 1744 in Logierait Perth Scotland, and had issue a son John b. 9 May 1764 Moulin Parish , chr. 11 May 1764 at Dunkeld Perth. Grizel's parents were Adam McNab and Catharin ( Catherine ) Robertson.

John McIntosh, son of Alexander McIntosh and Grizel MacNab, b. 9 May 1764 Moulin Parish , c 11 May 1764 at Dunkeld Perth, alias Mackintosh, married 2 Feb, 1784, Isobel ( or Isabel ) Cameron b. 22 Aug 1764 and christened, Moulin Parish, 25 or 26 August 1764, daughter of James Camron ( or Cameron ) and Elspeth Fergusson. From this marriage there appears to have been five children, Isobel b. 19 Nov 1784, Patrick b. 15 January  1786, Alexander b. 14 September 1788, Janet chr. 02 September 1792 and William b. 30 December 1795, all in Moulin Parish.

( From here I have physical proof by way of Census and Church record copies )

Alexander McIntosh  b. Redgorton ( Dull ) Perth 14 September 1788 married Elizabeth ( Ann ) Stewart b. 9 Jan 1802 Blair Atholl, the daughter of Alexander Stewart and Jane MacLauchlane. The marriage took place about the 20th of May 1821, These individuals appear in the 1841,1851,1861 Scottish Census and the Dunkeld Church records, and had issue John b. 24 May 1824, Peter b 23 Feb 1825,  Henry b 1832, Alexander b. 25 Mar 1833, Gordon b. 01 Jun 1834,  Charles b.18 Feb 1837, Elizabeth b 1840 and Neil b. Oct  8 1842 at Redgorton.  ( copies of the above names census's and the Old Scottish Parish records are in hand showing the family )

The 6th son, Charles Mackintosh alias McIntosh,  son of Alexander Mackintosh , sometimes McIntosh, was the father of Gordon ( Scotty ) McIntosh, born Scotland  1861 who immigrated to Allen's Township, Scott County, Iowa presumably sometime around 1860-1870 ( shows up in the 1870 census, 6th ward of Davenport, Scott County Iowa ) along with what appears to be his kinsmen ( perhaps cousins ), Duncan who was born in 1833, and Frederick who was born in 1846.  Both  living near Charles in Iowa. The witness at the marriage was Gordon McIntosh who was Charles's brother and the man he named his first son after.

Gordon, Charles son, was my G.Grandfather. I have documentary info to the time of Charles and Gordon's  father, Alexander who was born 1788, but before that the details are sketchy at best and most early info came by way of the IGI or from what I could gather from the census and marriage info.

At this point I feel like I am at a brick wall as John seems to be the likely candidtate for Alexs father but I can't find proof.

Kenneth McIntosh Kentucky USA

[KirstyG]

Where did you get these copies of Parish records? I am having trouble finding all of this family in the official records here.

I believe the marriage in Blair Atholl 20th May 1821 is a different couple. There are births of 8 children to Alexander McIntosh and Ann Stewart in Blair Atholl 1822-1844.

Is it usually safest when trying to work backwards to start from a position of known facts eg. marriage of Charles McIntosh and Mary Leslie for which you have well documented evidence that you are sure belongs to your family and then try to fill in the gaps. It is tempting to make assumptions but these can frequently cause problems.

You have to remember than not every birth was registered before 1855 and not all marriages took place in the established church. "Common-law" marriages were perfectly acceptable, and those belonging to a dissenting church may not have had records of their union which survived. Just because you can't find a record that exactly fits the information you have doesn't mean the event didn't happen, conversely, just because a record exists that could fit, doesn't mean it is the correct one - especially when dealing with names which are common in that area.

I would concentrate on trying to establish Alexander McIntosh's birth and parentage before taking things any further back. There are so many McIntosh families in the area that it would be very easy to follow the wrong line.

Why did you limit your search of birth places for Alexander to Moulin and Dunkeld when you had stated previously he was born in Redgorton? Where did you get this information about place of birth?

Lots of question and no answers i'm afraid!

Kirsty

[Kycowboy41]

Alexander shows up in the 1841 Redgorton Census as having wife Elizabeth Stewart and children John, Peter, Henry ( or Harry ) Gordon, Charles and Elizabeth. . In the 1851 Redgorton census he is shown again with an additional child being a son Neil. He also appears in the 1861 Census for Redgorton ( Census 1841 390/00 003/00 009 ) 06/06/1841 McIntosh Alexander

His son Charles ( born Redgorton , christined Dunkeld ) is also shown in the 1861 census having a wife Mary Leslie. and one son Gordon who was two months old. Charles imigrated to the us in 1871 settling first in Iowa and later in Illinois.The marriage of Charles and Mary took place at Dunkled. ( 1860 Dunkeld , Statuory Marriages 349/00 0003 )

He again is shown along with his wife Elizabeth on the marriage documents dated 1860 Dunkeld for Charles McIntosh and Mary Leslie. The register is dated as 26 Nov 1860. The marriage is witnessed by Gordon McIntosh ( Charles' brother )  and Ann Henderson.

In the 1861 Census records it lists Alexander's occupation as Ploughman, and him having been born in Moulin Parish. Elizabeth is shown as having been born Redgorton. Though in other records she is listed as being from Blair Atholl.

The son Charles had a son Gordon b 1861, who had a son Donald Scott b. 1897, who had a son Donald Gordon b. 1918, who had a son Gordon Donald b. 1942. Donald Gordon was my father and Gordon Donald was my oldest brother.

[Kycowboy41]

More info... Alexanders presumed father.

The John that I am trying to track down was the one who married Isobel Camron ( Cameron ) on Jan 24 1784 Moulin. I have a copy of their Banns of Marriage ( OPR Marriages 384/0010 0258 ) 02/02/1784 McIntosh John

In the IGI this John is listed as having by his wife Isobel ( Isabel ) a son Alexander who was born in 1788.

From this marriage there appears to have been five children, Isobel b. 19 Nov 1784, Patrick b. 15 January  1786, Alexander b. 14 September 1788, Janet chr. 02 September 1792 and William b. 30 December 1795, all in Moulin Parish. From the date of birth of the first child it appears they didn't waste any time starting a family.

Given the naming patterns of male Scots, Johns father probabbly was either a Patrick, Alexander or a William.

[Cambron]

I followed this up because of my interest in the Camerons in Moulin.

John McIntosh married Isobel Cameron 1784 Moulin both in the Parish
Alexander born to John and Isbel 1788 Moulin
Alexander married Elisabeth Stewart 1820 Redgorton
Alexander died Redgorton 1865 aged 76 witnessed by son Gordon Alexander's parents were John McIntosh and Isabella nee Cameron

All viewed on original OPR records on SP

Most likely solution for John who married 1784 is the John born in 1759 to John McIntosh and Isabel McPherson in Moulin.
There are three possible solutions for Isobel in Moulin
Have a look at the certificates.Probably the farmtowns will confirm linkages.Also try the Perthshire Militia Records in Perth Bell Library-some are on line.
Hope this helps