Author Topic: Ranulph FITZALAN - Fact or Fiction?  (Read 28995 times)

Offline KerrUSA

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Ranulph FITZALAN - Fact or Fiction?
« on: Tuesday 01 December 09 21:27 GMT (UK) »
Like thousands of others, I can trace a branch of my family back to William Dormer (1438-1506) of West Wycombe, whose parents were Geffery Dormer (1408-1478) and Ursula Collingridge (1407-1502), about whom Collins' Peerage of England states:  "He very much increased his estate by marriage with Ursula, daughter and heir of Bartholomew Collingridge, the heir general of Arundel, ..."  But from that point on, all information is sketchy and highly suspect.  Most online sources list Bartholomew's wife as Alice FitzAlan (c. 1385-1447), and his parents as John Collingridge (1355-?) and Margaret FitzAlan (c. 1360-?).  It is presumably by both his mother and wife being of the FitzAlans of Arundel that Bartholomew became "the heir general" to the Arundel estates (or what was left of them after Richard II distributed large portions of the Arundel estates to his cronies).

Alice FitzAlan is universally described as the daughter of Ranulph FitzAlan (1359-?) and Juliana "of Wycombe" (1361-?).  All of the online references to this relationship, however, cite one another and ultimately lead back to an unsourced citation in the LDS records.  There is no listing that I've ever been able to find of a Ranulph FitzAlan in any of the British peerage records or any other qualified source linking him to any known FitzAlan of Arundel.  He is also variously cited as Ranulf FitzAlan and Ralph FitzAlan.  Many skeptics have now come to describe Ranulph FitzAlan as either an outright fabrication or simply the son ("fitz") of someone unrelated to the Earls of Arundel named Alan.

I had nearly come to accept this verdict until I stumbled across a reference in Montague's Guide to the Study of Heraldry that discusses the unique arms of "Ralph de Arundel" as being "the arms of Arundel and Warenne flanched quarterly" and thus designating him as an illegitimate child of the House of Arundel.  Since the Warenne estates in Surrey did not pass to the Earls Arundel until 1347, none of the Ralph de Arundels prior to the Ranulph FitzAlan born 1359 would appear to qualify for these arms.  The same quarterings later appear in the Dormer arms.  Coincidence?

This Ralph de Arundel ("Radulphus de Arundell") was buried with his wife "Julyan" in the church at  Towersey, Bucks.  A marble slab in the chantry was quoted in Lee's The History, Description, and Antiquities of the Prebendal Church of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Thame (1883) as bearing the inscription:  "Pray for the soules of William and Christian his wife, also for Ralph Arundel and Julyan, also for Bartholomew Collingridge and Alys his wife and for their son William whose soules now her lyeth."  This is likely the source for assuming marital connections between these three families (FitzAlan, Collingridge, and Dormer).

I lack the wherewithall to fly to England to sort this all out, so I'm hoping that someone in Bucks can provide me with some guidance on how I might determine if "Ranulph FitzAlan" is also "Ralph de Arundel" and "Radulphus de Arundell", if he is indeed the illegitimate son of Richard FitzAlan ("Copped Hat") the 5th/10th Earl of Arundel, and father of Alice FitzAlan who married Bartholomew Collingridge.
Scotland:  Kerr, Bell, Tweedie, Johnstone, Carruthers, Moffat, Jardine
England:  Willis, Outhwaite, Groves, Masters, Kentish, Jenner
Germany:  Pellman (Pöhlman), Schimmel, Meier (Meyer)
BeNeLux:  Trum, Kurt, Hamburg

Offline chewboy

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Re: Ranulph FitzAlan - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #1 on: Monday 14 December 09 18:53 GMT (UK) »
Hi there

Peerage.com
http://www.thepeerage.com/p32865.htm#i328648

http://www.thepeerage.com/p32865.htm#i328649

Find out who William is, and you've cracked it!! ;)

Charles Mosley knows more about this than you or I, so I would accept that .

Copped Hat had four brothers, Michael, Edmund, John and Edward.  Possibly Edmund and Edward were one and the same. Any one of these could have fathered your man.

Not a William around that time in the direct Arundel dynasty, though.

These might be of help
www.college-of-arms.gov.uk
www.civicheraldry.co.uk
www.theheraldrysociety.com/
www.heraldry.co.uk/

I appreciate that this is probably not of much help. :(

Best wishes in your quest

Mark :)



Mark ;)

GENEALOGY IS A SUCCESSFUL FAMILY BUSINESS

All UK census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline KerrUSA

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Re: Ranulph FitzAlan - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #2 on: Monday 14 December 09 20:18 GMT (UK) »
Thank you, Mark!  I've seen this theory espoused before.  Sir William FitzAlan KG is generally held to have been the son of John FitzAlan, 1st Baron Arundel, and Lady Eleanor Maltravers.  This, however, makes Sir William's lifespan from c. 1369 to 1400.  By most accounts, Sir William died childless around age 31.  Assuming he did have offspring, they would have been born somewhere between 1385 (at the very earliest) and 1400, which does not coincide with the generally accepted timeline for Ranulph FitzAlan and his descendents.

Ranulph had a daughter, either Alice or "Unknown", who married Bartholomew Collingridge.  They had a daugher, Ursula, who was the mother of Wiliam Dormer, born 1438.  For this to have happened, Ursula must have been born by about 1420, which means that both Ranulph and his daughter would each have had to have their children at about age 15 -- not altogether unheard of, but certainly not common at that time.

It also seems to be inconsistent with both the armorial information for Sir Ranulph and his tomb inscription at Towersey.  I appreciate your help, but I'm not sure Sir William is the man I'm looking for.

Scotland:  Kerr, Bell, Tweedie, Johnstone, Carruthers, Moffat, Jardine
England:  Willis, Outhwaite, Groves, Masters, Kentish, Jenner
Germany:  Pellman (Pöhlman), Schimmel, Meier (Meyer)
BeNeLux:  Trum, Kurt, Hamburg

Offline serlo

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Re: Ranulph FitzAlan - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 02 March 10 06:10 GMT (UK) »
Hi Kerr,

I was just wondering if you have found anymore evidence to support your theory on Ranulf Fitzalan.

Also, do you know any credible sources for the parents of Bartholomew Collingridge?
I saw that you think his parents might be Margaret Fitzalan and John Collingridge, but I haven't found any good results when searching them online.

Thanks


Offline KerrUSA

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Re: Ranulph FitzAlan - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 02 March 10 14:50 GMT (UK) »
Serlo, no I have not yet uncovered any further evidence concerning Ranulf.

And, no, I don't really know of any credible sources for Bart's parents.  I believe I first saw the John-and-Margaret connection stated in LDS sources, and it is almost universally given as such on Ancestry.com and Genealogy.com.  While the LDS genealogies are reliable for the most part, I have found that a good deal of their information is questionable.  It appears that in a number of cases, LDS people have found someone with the same surname born 20-40 years prior to an individual in the same county and have simply assumed them to have parent/child relationships -- which is often not the actual case.  Similarly, the source citations on Ancestry.com and Genealogy.com are often circular -- Joe cites John who cites Mary who cites Joe!  So even heavily "sourced" citations on these sites are often suspect.  And, of course, most general search results on Google are as credibly documented as most JFK assassination theories ...

... Which is the reason I brought this case to RootsChat.  I've found the people on RootsChat are often locals (i.e., living in or near Bucks today) who know precisely where more reliable sources can be found (for example which parish records to search, where to find wills and estates recorded, etc.).  Sometimes they will even do the lookup, but just knowing where to search can save months -- and a good bit of cash!
Scotland:  Kerr, Bell, Tweedie, Johnstone, Carruthers, Moffat, Jardine
England:  Willis, Outhwaite, Groves, Masters, Kentish, Jenner
Germany:  Pellman (Pöhlman), Schimmel, Meier (Meyer)
BeNeLux:  Trum, Kurt, Hamburg

Offline bedfordshire boy

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Re: Ranulph FitzAlan - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 02 March 10 18:27 GMT (UK) »
It's now been shown that she was Alice Collingridge, not Ursula. See a Soc.Genealogy.medieval thread at

http://www.rootschat.com/links/086s/


I place no reliance on entries on the LDS site when they relate to this period.

David
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Offline KerrUSA

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Re: Ranulph FitzAlan - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 02 March 10 19:51 GMT (UK) »
David, thank you for your most helpful reply and links.  I will amend my "Ursula" records accordingly, and hopefully be able to obtain a copy of the records mentioning Alice by name.

In case I neglected to say so, I also very much appreciated your help with my Willis riddle in the Bedfordshire forum.  Still haven't tracked down "Thomas Sr." but I have faith that I will one day.  After all, I discovered 3 or 4 new generations in a single year's time after 10 years of fruitless efforts!  I still have living Willis cousins in England.  One is a history major at University of Kent, so I've enlisted his assistance in tracking down our mutual ancestor, Thomas Sr.!

The irony of my research has been that Mum's (known) ancestors are all English and Scottish (Kerr), with many relatives still living, yet each of her lines has hit a dead-end around 1700.  On Dad's side, however, we've been able to trace several lines (including the Baldwin--Dormer--Collingridge--Arundel line) to the late Middle Ages with no (known) living relatives in the UK from that side of the family!  So my "extinct" lines have been easier to trace!
Scotland:  Kerr, Bell, Tweedie, Johnstone, Carruthers, Moffat, Jardine
England:  Willis, Outhwaite, Groves, Masters, Kentish, Jenner
Germany:  Pellman (Pöhlman), Schimmel, Meier (Meyer)
BeNeLux:  Trum, Kurt, Hamburg

Offline serlo

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Re: Ranulph FitzAlan - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 02 March 10 22:39 GMT (UK) »
After reading the evidence shown by Douglas Richardson I have to agree that Ranulph appears to have descended from Richard de Arundell.  That would certainly be nice.

Hopefully I'll get the chance to go to England and investigate this myself.

Thanks for making these posts, they certainly are more helpful than Ancestry.com which is very misleading.

Jordan

Offline connellaw

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Re: Ranulph FITZALAN - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 01 August 10 22:04 BST (UK) »
In researching this very issue, I came across an obscure and rare book, in the New York Public Library, called "The Early Genealogical History of the House of Arundel" by John Pym Yeatman (1882). On Page 295 of this text, there is a Pedigree chart of one branch of the Fitz Alan line.  It Provides for an "Alice, dau, and heir = Bartholomew Coleridge", who's parents (Alice's) are given as "Robert Fitz Alan = Juliana".  However, on Page 324 of this same text, another Fitz Alan Pedigree Provides for the same "Alice, dau and heiress = Bartholomew Coleridge 9 Ed. IV., who's parents (Alice's) are given as "Ranulf fitz Alan, only son = Juliana. Clearly, this is the same "Alice" and "Bartholomew", but there is an inconsistency in the names of her Parents... this is likely an oversight by Yeatman.  As, if one look to Alice's grandparents and g-grandparents on these 2 pedigree's connect to John de Arundel and Eleanor Maltravers.

Thus, the Pedigree on Page 295 continues as:

1. Alice, dau, and heir = Barthlomew Coleridge
2. Robert fitz Alan = Juliana (from above)
3. William Fitz Alan = Christina
4. John Fitz Alan - Eleanor, dau. and heir of Henry, Lord Maltravers
5. Richard Fitz Alan II., Earl of Arundel b. 1305 + 1377 - Eleanor Plantagenet

The Pedigree on Page 324 has one inconsistency with the Pedigree on Page 295 (in generation 2 and 3) but they are clearly the same Alice and Bartholomew:

1. Alice, dau. and heiress = Barthlomew Coleridge + 9 Ed. IV.
2. Ranulf fitz Alan, only son = Juliana
3. Sir William fitz Alan, K.G. + 1st Aug., 1400 = Agnes
4. John de Arundel. Marshall of England. Drowned 1379 = Alinanor, dau. of John Maltravers
5. Richard fitz Alan II., Earl of Arundel, b. 1306 + 1375 = Eleanor, dau. of Henry Plantagenet, Earl of Lancaster. m. 1345 + 1372

I've attached images of these Pedigrees to this Posting.  hopefully this contribution will be of assistance to all of us working piecing this puzzle together!