Author Topic: Ranulph FITZALAN - Fact or Fiction?  (Read 22891 times)

Offline KerrUSA

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Re: Ranulph FITZALAN - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #18 on: Sunday 07 December 14 02:04 GMT (UK) »
Marilyn,  I would greatly appreciate receiving scanned copies and deeply appreciate your generosity.  My email address is len_pellman[at]yahoo.com (using the @ symbol of course).
Scotland:  Kerr, Bell, Tweedie, Johnstone, Carruthers, Moffat, Jardine
England:  Willis, Outhwaite, Groves, Masters, Kentish, Jenner
Germany:  Pellman (Pöhlman), Schimmel, Meier (Meyer)
BeNeLux:  Trum, Kurt, Hamburg

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Offline Warewolf

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Re: Ranulph FITZALAN - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #19 on: Saturday 28 February 15 06:43 GMT (UK) »
Hi all - I have just made the connection to this line on Ancestry.com and hesitated when I couldnt find much corroboration for Ranulph - this chat forum is very useful. To those of you who have collected all of the available material, what's is the current verdict? Is Ranulph really part of the aristocratic Fitzalan family? 

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Offline strathbrook

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Re: Ranulph FITZALAN - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #20 on: Saturday 28 February 15 07:48 GMT (UK) »
Burkes Peerage 2003 Edition Page 1168, also Collins Peerage.refer to Ranulph as descending from William Fitzalan. I do not have the exact Collins Peerage reference at the tip of my fingers, can reasearch it. The History and Antiquities of Buckinghamshire also refers to Ranulph same as above. I have read it myself personally, but due to a computer gliche at the time lost the reference and have been looking for it again every since. There is also a reference in HAB re the tombstone details, which refers to G Dormer and his two wives, children, Ranulph and Julyann his wife and William and Alice. I can be contacted through my family tree on ancestry. Strathbrook.  I personally believe yes he did exist and is the result of an affair which obviously the Fitzalan family  would not have approved of.

Offline strathbrook

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Re: Ranulph FITZALAN - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #21 on: Sunday 01 March 15 00:31 GMT (UK) »
Will be purchasing the book, Plantagenet Ancestry by Douglas Richardson, not in print, but have my name listed to be notified when available. Cheers Marilyn

Offline KerrUSA

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Re: Ranulph FITZALAN - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #22 on: Sunday 01 March 15 01:02 GMT (UK) »
As PDF copies of these previously obscure records become more readily available, it is becoming abundantly clear that a Ranulph (with several variant spellings) FitzAlan, did in fact exist and was a son of a William FitzAlan.  The flanching of his arms strongly suggests an illegitimate descent, but the remaining question is whether is more than one William FitzAlan whose son he could have been.

I believe we'll uncover enough information in the next few years to make a definitive determination and settle the matter for even the most persistent skeptics.
Scotland:  Kerr, Bell, Tweedie, Johnstone, Carruthers, Moffat, Jardine
England:  Willis, Outhwaite, Groves, Masters, Kentish, Jenner
Germany:  Pellman (Pöhlman), Schimmel, Meier (Meyer)
BeNeLux:  Trum, Kurt, Hamburg

Offline Warewolf

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Re: Ranulph FITZALAN - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #23 on: Sunday 01 March 15 08:55 GMT (UK) »
Thanks to Strathbrook & KerrUSA for your comments - I have an open mind right now & am just looking to see what material there is to support the connection into the Fitzalans - there is a lot riding on it.
On the question of William FitzAlan - apart from the William-John-Richard line, are there other known possibilities?
Also there is an on-line version of the History & Antiquities of Buckinghamshire - http://archive.org/stream/historyantiquiti04lips/historyantiquiti04lips_djvu.txt - I have done searches but couldnt find any reference to Ranulph, at the page given or in the index - do I have the right reference?
Thanks again
 

Offline strathbrook

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Re: Ranulph FITZALAN - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #24 on: Sunday 01 March 15 21:01 GMT (UK) »
Take 2, my laptop has a mind of its own.     GEFFERY DORMER, of W Wycombe; married Isabel, daughter and coheir of Thomas Balldington, Lord Manors of Balldington, Thame, Oxon, and Adderbury, Oxon, by Agnes (dau of John Danvers, of Cothorpe, by Alice, daughter and heiress of William Verney, of Byfield), and had:
GEFFERY DORMER, of W Wycombe; Lord Manor of Thame; married 1st Margaret (died 1454), daughter and coheir of John Launcelyn, of Cople, Beds; married 2nd Ursula, daughter and heir of Bartholomew Collingridge and grand-daughter of Ranulf FitzAlan andgreat-grand-daughter of Sir William FitzAlan, KG (died 1 Aug 1400), and had, with other issue, including a younger son (Sir Michael, Sheriff London 1529, Lord Mayor 1541):
this is Burkes Peerage Page 1168 Edition 2003 (?)

Offline KerrUSA

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Re: Ranulph FITZALAN - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 01 March 15 22:16 GMT (UK) »
Attached is a JPEG copy of page 150 of the Testamenta Vetusta, Volume 1, quoting the will of Sir William Arundel dated 01 August 1400.  His will omits any reference to children, and he leaves all of his estates to his "carnal" brother Sir Richard Arundel, his jewels to his widow, and his silverware to their nephew who was also named Sir William Arundel.  Not only does his will make no mention of children, but none are recorded elsewhere and several accounts mention him as either "childless" or "leaving no heirs".

We must conclude from this either that Ranulf/Ranulph was illegitimate and thus excluded from the will, or that he was the son of a different William FitzAlan/Arundel.
Scotland:  Kerr, Bell, Tweedie, Johnstone, Carruthers, Moffat, Jardine
England:  Willis, Outhwaite, Groves, Masters, Kentish, Jenner
Germany:  Pellman (Pöhlman), Schimmel, Meier (Meyer)
BeNeLux:  Trum, Kurt, Hamburg

Offline strathbrook

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Re: Ranulph FITZALAN - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 01 March 15 22:23 GMT (UK) »
Further to our discussions. Recently I did my autosomal dna test. I came across a 3rd -5th cousin in Gotland, who has an extensive ancestry family tree. It was through a completely different surname that I found her, but this lady is a descendant of Thomas de Holland and Alice Fitzalan. I searched many other names which did not show up on her tree, only this one Fitzalan name. I am slowly working along my family line in Wikitree as they have the dna tests. Although this is not 100% proof of a connection it is a start, I am rated as 100% European, and all the areas shown on my dna map are those of where my family tree ancestors also came from, the only european ancestors being from the dormer, parkhurst, fitzalan lines etc. Except for a Peterson from Sweden which was how I originally contacted this 3rd cousin. So I encourage others trying to find a key to the Fitzalan door to find a family tree program where dna can be done.