COMPLETED: St. Mary's, Luton Marriage Lookup Please, COURTNEY

[johnP-bedford]

I'm also interested in Thomas Courtney........ as I've not found him on the censuses. 

Have you found Thomas and/or Eliza on censuses after their marriage in 1873 ? I have had a look but no luck --  except on 1901 there is an Elizabeth Courtney, widow age 56 born Luton, Beds (although that's mistranscribed as Lenton !) living in South-West Hackney. She has with her grandson Bert age 22 born Hackney. Next door is a William Courtney, age 31 born Luton, with wife Anne & 2 children, & next door on is Thomas Courtney age 34 with wife Eliza born Luton & son.

Interesting is the Hackney connection, as George Hine & Eliza plus son George & others are living in Hackney, Middx on the 1861 census

Regards John

[tazzie]

   Hi

  think this is them in 1891 in Hackney still
  RG12/ 204 F 118 PAGE 67  31 Ada St

 Eliza Courtney hd m 43 laundress washer    Beds
 Rose               dau u 18 silken worker            Beds
 Alice Hines boarder u 15    "        "                 London Bethnal Green
 Wm Brown   "   "  27        car   ? (cannot read) "          St Lukes.

 Does Rose marry in 1891 in to Charles Savery at Bethnal Green?
 If this is right a Charles Hine was a witness and her sister Sarah. Thomas is listed as father deceased.

  There is a Thomas Courtney/Courtenay b Silverton Devon @ 1846 who keeps flitting in and out of the census.
 I think the marriage details will open this up on his side at least.
   Tazzie

[MatthewJ]

Hi,

I have found Eliza on the censuses after 1873, but not Thomas. I am using my work computer at the moment, and I haven't got all of my research with me, but off the top of my head, in the 1871 census Eliza has two sons, a George T. Pollard and a William. The only George Pollard I could find around that time in the birth indexes was a Thomas George, which I think is him. Following his mother's 1873 marriage he appears as Thomas Courtney. Rose is born in the same quarter as the marriage, seemingly registered as a Pollard, but after the marriage given as Courtney. Sarah is born 1875 I think, registered as a Courtney.

Rose did marry Charles Savery in 1891, and this does make the Hackney connection interesting. As you have seen she lived in Ada Street in Hackney in 1891. Charles Savery lived in Goring Street at the time (which is now called Jackman Street). If you look at them on a map they are neighbouring streets which run parallel to each other. You will also see that Charles' maternal grandmother is living with them, who is Eliza Hine (Eliza's mother, and so Rose's grandmother too). I can't remember what year the marriage was, but Charles Savery's father and namesake married Jane Hine, the daughter of George and Eliza.

Having seen all of this I couldn't help but wonder why George and Eliza would have left their first daughter with Eliza's parents, then got married and had more children of their own, and moved out of the area, only for Eliza to follow later on. If she was George's daughter I can't understand why they didn't take her in when they had children in wedlock. Maybe it was because of the stigma surrounding illegitimate children? Although young Eliza seemed to be happy having Thomas Courtney's children before they were married, and then another during, but kept them all together.

Matthew

[tazzie]

  Bit more on son Thomas/ George b @1867

 He married twice 1st wife Minnie Mariner
  St Paul Bethnal Green 25 Dec 1890
  Thomas George Courtenay age 24 bach gilder  father Thomas  brass gilder
  Minnie Mariner    age 27 spin  father Josiah Mariner tailor
 I cannot read the address and they both give the same one. A William Browne is a witness and the lodger in 1891 was Wm Brown.

 2nd
Emma King St Thomas Bethnal Green
 July 8 1900

 Thomas Courtney age 33 wid Gilder father Thomas deceased lab
 Emma King age 33 toymaker father Edward deceased lab
 address Harrand St? Halland st?
 witnesses John & Sarah Blake........ sister Sarah married John Arthur Blake in 1892 she list Thomas snr the father as Stovemaker on her marriage.

Just spinning the names around to get something I hate dead ends!
    Tazzie

[johnP-bedford]

Matthew --- & hello Tazzie

I've got the day off & as Beds Archives are just down the road - well after I creep out of the village on the iced up roads - I went for a visit...

The 1st Feb 1873 marriage at St Marys Luton by banns...

Thomas Courtney, bachelor, age 28, of Luton, occupation Stoker; father William Courtney, basket maker

- to -

Eliza Pollard, spinster, age 25, of Luton, no occupation; father George Pollard, bricklayer

witnesses William Hines & ? ? ? Barker (female as it says her mark)   

While the marriage entry is in name of Eliza Pollard, where they have to sign it says Eliza Hine Pollard, with her mark.

Why is it that her father is named Pollard & not Hine ? perhaps the vicar assumed this if the real facts were not disclosed at the time, but it must be him as George Hine was a bricklayer's labourer on 1861 census

[johnP-bedford]

From the 29 Oct 1849 St Marys Luton marriage of George Hine, bachelor, age 29, of Luton, labourer; father James Hine, labourer  -to-  Eliza Pollard, spinster, age 22 of Luton; father Joseph Pollard, labourer.

witnesses William Pollard & Elizabeth Pollard

[johnP-bedford]

St Marys Luton baptisms on 3rd Feb 1850

In the register George appears first, above Eliza, although in the margin against her is written 'oldest'; both children of George & Eliza Hine, labourer of Luton.   

[tazzie]

  Hello John .....

 Glad you made it in one piece bit icy over my way....
 Anyway ....BINGO....  the Silverton one looks good now as ....

 Silverton 1851

 High Bullen
 Elizabeth Courtney hd w 67 school mistress  Devon Templeton
 William Courtney son wid 47 BASKETMAKER    Devon Silverton
 John    Courtney g/son 11 scholar                      "          "  "

  A 7 year old Thomas Courtney is nephew to Isabella Langdon  4 doors down the road
  HO107/1888 F124 PAGE23

 Can see him with sister in 1861 and poss in Watford in 1881 after that stumped.....

 off to walk the dog in the snow....back later

  Tazzie

[MatthewJ]

Hi,

Tazzie, I too had found that marriage for Sarah, I can't remember whether I had mate not of the Thomas ones, I will look this evening.

John - thank you for the information from the marriage record, I had already pencilled James in as his father based on a baptism I got from the IGI: Harpenden, Herford 26th July 1818, George Hine baptised to James and Mary. So I think that almost certainly confirms it, there weren't many George Hines around, certainly not in Harpenden. Thank you very much too for the information from the baptisms. Bearing in mind how young George was at the time (he was 1 year old over a year later on the 1881 census), it doesn't leave any time for Eliza to have been born in wedlock (when the marriage was less than months before these baptisms). So she almost certainly would have been born Eliza Pollard.

Thanks a lot for this, I'll take a longer look at all of this this evening. I'd best get back to work now, but thanks again, this is really appreciated.

Matthew