Author Topic: CRIMEA - 8th HUSSARS - Enl/Disch dates  (Read 17585 times)

Offline diatrbus

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
CRIMEA - 8th HUSSARS - Enl/Disch dates
« on: Monday 28 December 09 10:31 GMT (UK) »
I’ve encountered a problem I can’t get past from here that perhaps someone with more expertise than I might be able to help solve – it may just be a case of wrong dates having been transposed somewhere/somehow, but as an amateur I can’t find an official point to establish the correct dates.

Background: My GGrandfather was a survivor of the Charge of the Light Brigade, ex 8th Hussars. The data that I have found concerning his enlistment and discharge dates is confusing.
He was: Private, Charles DALTON, Reg No. 1436 – or perhaps 1136. . . there seems to be some confusion in the material I have read that refers to either Dalton-C and/or Dalton-H with numbers 1436 and/or 1136. I’d dearly love to clear this up.

If one accesses http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+Australian+graves+of+Crimean+War+Light+Brigade+veterans-a083477092
his enlistment date is said to have been ??March 1850 at Windsor and his discharge date ??September 1863, at Calcutta, India, after 12 years’ service – which doesn’t compute.

Also, it is reasonably believed that he arrived in Sydney, Australia, as the manservant to/with Governor Sir John Young (Baron Lisgar) on 22 Mar 1861.

Can anyone please point me towards true and accurate records?

Thanks, Dalton
GGF: Charles DALTON - Crimea; COLB survivor - 8th Hussars
Paternal GF - Real Name Unknown - Arr A/a 1877 as WALKER T thereafter used Thomas Walker NEVILLE.

Offline km1971

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 9,343
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: CRIMEA - 8th HUSSARS - Enl/Disch dates
« Reply #1 on: Monday 28 December 09 13:11 GMT (UK) »
Hi Dalton

We have had this man before - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,291558.msg1750415.html#msg1750415

Only service after the age of 18 counted towards his '12'. So if his DoB is correct, he enlisted when he was 17 not 18.  So that should take up some of the excess. Also Victorian 2s can look like 3s (with a top curl), so maybe he was discharged in 1862.

The arrival date does not fit. However the feeling the first time around was that he may have arrived in 1863. If Liverpool Annie doesn't pick this up I suggest you send her a PM.

If you cannot get to Kew to check to see if his service record has survived, and you do not want to pay for a researcher, you will have to wait for Findmypast to put surviving records online 'by 2011'. You may be lucky and find FindMyPast put them online during 2010, as the surviving records have already been scanned.

If his record has not survived you will have to pay a researcher to look at the muster books (again in Kew) for the 8th Hussars for 1850 and 1862/63. The website providing the details, or the headstone itself could be at fault. To be certain only his service record or entries in the muster books can be trusted.

Ken

Offline diatrbus

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: CRIMEA - 8th HUSSARS - Enl/Disch dates
« Reply #2 on: Monday 28 December 09 14:59 GMT (UK) »
Ken, you're a gem.

You've reflected much of my thoughts. But, yes, the discharge date and d.o.a in A/a are a bit strange. I tried to attach a timeline for Charles to this msg - but wasn't successful. I'll now go to bed before opening the link you have sent me. . . because it's 02:00.

I'll respond with more tomorrow when I work out how to get a Word doc saved as a txt one.

Many thanks, Goodnight.
Dalton
GGF: Charles DALTON - Crimea; COLB survivor - 8th Hussars
Paternal GF - Real Name Unknown - Arr A/a 1877 as WALKER T thereafter used Thomas Walker NEVILLE.

Offline diatrbus

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: CRIMEA - 8th HUSSARS - Enl/Disch dates
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 31 December 09 01:10 GMT (UK) »
Attached is a timeline for Charles DALTON created from as much information as has been gleaned from reputable and verifiable sources over the past twelve or fifteen years. It is likely that in addition to the nine children that survived another two did not - however, BDM searches do not reveal any death cert's. . . not uncommon given that transposition from handwritten material to the final microfilm/fiche and then to digital media leaves opportunity for mistakes (some identified); and possibly reports/returns were not made or didn't reach the central registry. Where dates conflict between BDM and family bible entries I have taken the bible to be the more likely.

Brgds, DFN
GGF: Charles DALTON - Crimea; COLB survivor - 8th Hussars
Paternal GF - Real Name Unknown - Arr A/a 1877 as WALKER T thereafter used Thomas Walker NEVILLE.


Offline liverpool annie

  • Deceased † Rest In Peace
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • ********
  • Posts: 13,434
  • Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: CRIMEA - 8th HUSSARS - Enl/Disch dates
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 31 December 09 01:46 GMT (UK) »
Hi  diatrbus and welcome !

How exciting to have one of the "600" in your family !! ( I'm envious !! )

Dalton   Pte   Charles   1136   8th H ( as recorded in EJ Boys archive )

Also Lawrence Crider was a member here ... he is a leading authority on the Light Brigade ... maybe we can ask him too !!

Mike Neville was a member here for a while ... not sure if I still have his email but I'll look and see what I can find !

Quote


Dalton was born in St. Lukes, London, England in 1832 and served with the 8th King's Royal "Irish" Hussars during the Crimea War; including the Charge of the Light Brigade and the Indian Mutiny. The uniform he is wearing in this photo looks like that of a Senior Sergeant in the King's 8th, however, the British "foreign service" helmet next to him interestingly bears the first N.S.W. Police helmet plate; as illustrated above. It is this author's opinion, that Dalton fashioned this N.S.W. Police uniform on that of his old military unit. Senior officer's in the N.S.W. Police soon began to wear and would continue wear "hussar" style, undress jackets from the 1880's up until the 1940's.
 
Dalton had a very interesting life. After service in India, Dalton officially travelled to Australia on board the P&O mail steamer, "Northam", as "escort" to the newly appointed NSW Administrator and soon to be, Governor in Chief of Australia, Lord John Young and his wife Lady Adelaide Young. They arrived in Sydney in 1861 and Dalton fell in love with Australia. He excelled in his new work in the Mounted Governor's Escort and was asked to stay on in that role by Lord Young.
 
In 1862 and pursuant to new Police Regulation Act of 1862, Dalton was officially discharged, after 12 years and 70 days service with H.R.H. military forces, with the "Good Conduct badge" whilst on active service at the Governor's pleasure and he and his elite, mounted troopers (known as "the Governor's Escort" ) were to become one of the last of the disperate " law enforcement" bodies in N.S.W, to be officially amalgamated into the newly formed New South Wales Police Force. He became officer No. 1342 and he and his family settled into their home at Goulburn; whilst he served in the Western District. In 1864, at the insistence of Governor Young, his duties were retransferred to the old, "Depot"; where Police troopers for Government House security and the South East District were stationed.
 
After the attempted assassination of the visting Prince Alfred, whilst he was attending a picnic at Clontarf on the 12th March, 1868, Dalton returned to full-time, Government House duty and was promoted to the rank of  Sergeant on the 1st July, 1868. On 6th March, 1869 he was awarded the title of "Officer-In-Charge" of the "New South Wales Police Mounted Governor's Escort" and he, along with his family and four N.S.W. "Mounted Troopers" moved into and occupied the "Government House Household Cavalry" buildings ( now known as the "Conservatorium of Music") which they used as their home for the next 20 years; and to serve the next 7 "Governor's".
 
Dalton was one of only twelve possible survivors of the "Charge of the Light Brigade" to settle in Australia and was made a member of the Balaclava Commemeration Society (exclusive to those who actually rode in "The Charge"), in 1879.
The "Government House Household Cavalry Barracks" building is located in Maquarie Street, Sydney; a beautiful, ornate building specifically designed to house "His Excellency" the Governor's Escort, by the talented "gentleman convict" architect, Francis Greenway.
 
Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407030702/http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407191115/http://manchestersoldiers.webs.com

http://web.archive.org/web/20130807102055/http://www.powv.webs.com/
Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I

Offline liverpool annie

  • Deceased † Rest In Peace
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • ********
  • Posts: 13,434
  • Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: CRIMEA - 8th HUSSARS - Enl/Disch dates
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 31 December 09 01:49 GMT (UK) »
Continued ....

Quote
This historic, building is currently being used as a school, offices and recital hall for Sydney's "Conservatorium of Music".
 
In 1872 Dalton had another daughter, who was named, Antoinette Mary Dalton; my Grandmother was born at Government House, Sydney, as were six of her other brothers and sisters. (see below)

Dalton also became instrumental in the founding of Australia's first official independent Military Force, the "Sydney Light Horse", because of his access to the then Governor, Lord Loftus. Please see: THE ROYAL N.S.W. LANCERS 1885 -1960. Edited by P.V. Vernon. Available here: http://www.lancers.org.au/
 
Inspector John Bevin, of The New Zealand Police Force (another 8th Hussar who "came through" Balaclava; see the "Charger list" (as named above), while stationed in Dunedin, had written a letter of introduction to Charles Dalton for a Mr. Robert Roland Thompson, who was a former Sergeant of the 4th Dragoon Guards. It was Dalton's access to the then Governor, Lord Loftus, that led to the formation of the first (Volunteer) Australian (Sydney) Light Horse and to R.R Thompson eventually becoming it's first adjutant in 1887.  Apparently, the articles for the formation of Australia's, first official Light Horse troop were written in the Dalton's dining room, at the now "Conservatorium of Music".
 
During the excavations for the underground additions for the Conservatorium of Music site in 2000 (or more appropriately, the Governor's Household Cavalry Barracks site), many items that belonged to Dalton's family and his Police troopers from the 1800's, such as issued and marked Queen Victoria "crowned" items  from the N.S.W. Police, (including badges, buttons and household items) were excavated from this site and are now on display there.

By all reports, Dalton was also an accomplished horse rider and shot and in his early days, had accompanied Captain Zouch, a fellow N.S.W. Police officer, many times on his excursions to hunt down local bushrangers on the Goulburn plains.
 
On the 31st October 1889, after more than 25 years with the Governor's escort and the N.S.W. Police, Dalton retired and moved with his family to Balgowlah.
 
My Great, Grandfather, Senior Sergeant Charles Dalton died on the 5th February, 1891, after a thrilling, adventurous and rewarding life.
 
I am sure there is a unique story behind each and every badge; if only they could talk.
 
Please enjoy the site.
 
Mike Neville.
 
January 21, 2004.
 
UPDATED: 2004-2009.

http://www.ozbadge.com/introduction.html

These are his pictures .....

The Dalton family c 1888.
After 25 years with the NSW Mounted Police at Government House Barracks, Dalton retired and the family moved to Balgowlah. My Great, Grandfather, Charles Dalton, died in 1891.

Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407030702/http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407191115/http://manchestersoldiers.webs.com

http://web.archive.org/web/20130807102055/http://www.powv.webs.com/
Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I

Offline liverpool annie

  • Deceased † Rest In Peace
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • ********
  • Posts: 13,434
  • Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: CRIMEA - 8th HUSSARS - Enl/Disch dates
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 31 December 09 01:53 GMT (UK) »


Senior Sergeant Charles Dalton wearing the uniform of the NSW Police Governor's Escort;
which is almost identical to that of 8th King's Royal Irish Hussars.
His NSW Police helmet with the first helmet plate are displayed next to him. Freeman: c1880.
© Copyright Australian War Memorial, Ozbadge and families.

Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407030702/http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407191115/http://manchestersoldiers.webs.com

http://web.archive.org/web/20130807102055/http://www.powv.webs.com/
Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I

Offline liverpool annie

  • Deceased † Rest In Peace
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • ********
  • Posts: 13,434
  • Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: CRIMEA - 8th HUSSARS - Enl/Disch dates
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 31 December 09 03:15 GMT (UK) »


You probably have this already .. but just in case !!  :)

The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842-1954) Friday 6 February 1891, page 1

DALTON.—February 5, at his residence, Gwalior, Balgowlah, near Manly, Charles Dalton, late Senior Sergeant Governor's Escort, and of the 8th King's Royal Irish Hussars. Served in the Crimea and Turkey, at Alma, Balaclava, Inkermann, and Sebastopol, and in India at the Siege of Kotah, Recapture of Chundaree, Kotah Ki Seari, Capture of Gwalier, Powrie, Sindwah, and Koonoyr ; leaving a wife and nine children to mourn their loss.
Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407030702/http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407191115/http://manchestersoldiers.webs.com

http://web.archive.org/web/20130807102055/http://www.powv.webs.com/
Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I

Offline diatrbus

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: CRIMEA - 8th HUSSARS - Enl/Disch dates
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 31 December 09 09:59 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Annie,

Yes I do have those – plus the rest of the material I have gathered on him over fifteen years or so of researching him and mainly his descendants – of which there were at least thirty-four grandchildren (and probably more whose BDM details I cannot access – but will hopefully soon discover via proposed contact with rellies.) There have been at least five sets of descendants to Charles and his wife Jessie; I am unaware of a sixth – as of today.

We are lucky in Australia to be able to access most States’ BDM databanks without having to pay for the privilege; obtaining certificates is another matter and if one finds that this becomes burdensome there is always the opportunity to join one of the Heraldry and Genealogy Societies – as I did years ago, and they generally have microfilm or microfiche libraries of the original registers and entries. Also, our Australian National Library has a special Family History department where one can go to do deep research. The ANL is also forever bringing new data access sites on line and in the past week I have found a heap of newspaper articles and pars concerning Charles – many of his police items of note and other pertinent stuff.

Praise be to the Internet and to Email! From a start-point that was a shuffling of pencilled pieces of paper, bits of remembered family myth, and talks with a couple of uncles and aunts who avidly wrote I have been able to pad out such of that which can be verified (or refuted) with other research or written material that I’ve “Googled”. So much so that I have a narrative with images that runs to over forty A4 pages on Charles and his wife, alone. More is expected soon and maybe even a bit of those forty pages might have to be culled to negate the unsubstantiated or mythological.

My wife and I travelled to the UK two years ago and went to the PRO which we found less user-friendly than doing research via the Web – unfortunately we visited on a Sunday and the computer system was “down” and the staff basically unfussed towards helping newbies.

It’d be nice to think that some kind soul would devote a bit of lookup time to try to find an original post-charge muster roll so that we might better sort out the anomaly of whether he served using an assumed given name (starting with “H”) or whether that fact is incorrect and caused by who-knows-what. The various lists that were made up many years after the charge may well suffer errors of transposition that today are difficult to sort out. (As a classical example of this, my father, Dalton NEVILLE’s BDM entry is incorrect as the registry interpreted an “open-topped D” as a stylised “W” and he is therefore listed as “Walton NEVILLE.”

A second vexation concerning Charles is the apparent discrepancy with the date of his discharge. As best we know he was discharged from British Military in Calcutta on 8 Sept 1860 (1862/3? There is confusion relating to the actual date. We understand he was discharged "time expired" in Calcutta, India (12yrs 70 days) with Good Conduct badge. The records available give no indication of when, or how, or if he returned to England: and the shipping records in the Sydney Morning Herald for the day of Charles’s arrival in Australia (as best we know it) do not mention him by name among those passengers that the vessel started with when it sailed out from England, nor is he listed among those who were picked up along the way in India and at the Port of Galle (in the then) Ceylon – in fact the report of the Northam’s travel only mentions Bombay – Calcutta does not feature!

If, as it reasonably seems Charles and Jessie were somehow/somewhere caught up in the haste of Governor Young’s departure from London and travel to Sydney and were both acting as personal servants to His Lordship (and Charles was neither ADC, nor Escort to Sir John – as was believed by certain of his descendants) they quite likely were the unnamed “Man and Maid Servant(s)” shown in the arrival list of passengers of the “Northam” in March 1861.

The date of arrival in Australia that we have for Sir John Young and his entourage, including Charles and his (to be) wife Jessie was 22 March 1861 and of course, when you do the sums using Charles’s Service time, his enlistment date, and that supposed date of discharge, things just don’t add up.

Anybody with a bit of spare research time would receive mine and other descendants’ undying gratitude – and I’ll send them a copy of my history of Charles Dalton.

Best Regards - and Happy New Year (in 3 hrs here)
Another Great Grandson, Dalton Neville.
GGF: Charles DALTON - Crimea; COLB survivor - 8th Hussars
Paternal GF - Real Name Unknown - Arr A/a 1877 as WALKER T thereafter used Thomas Walker NEVILLE.