Elizabeth SMITH and John BAILEY

[grumpier]

Hello my first post, so here goes.

I am tryingf to confirm that Elizabeth Smith's father was Joseph Smith, the convict - 2nd fleet Neptune. Elizabeth was born 1799  and died 1846.  Married John Bailey  ofSt Albans NSW IN 1828.  Does anyone have any information that may help?
 Grumpier

[trish1120]

Hi Grumpier,
Welcome to Rootschat

There is no 1799 Birth on NSW BMD for Elizabeth.
May I ask how you got her birth year?
There is this one though;
Elizabeth SMITH
1797, Sydney, Parents THOMAS and ANN
There are 2 ref nos to purchase the Cert if you think she may be yours.


I cannot find a Marriage Reg or Death Reg for Elizabeth.

Others with access to more records than me may be able to help you more.

Cheers,
Trish

[aniph]

Me neither

2 marriages from 1800-1850
Elizabeth Prosser  1833
Elizabeth Green   1842

Annie

[judb]

IGI has the following refs, however they are all submitted, so unreliable, especially in this case as three of them seem to be the same person with differing info - which is why you are trying to sort it out, I suppose!!

Elizabeth SMITH, b 10 Jul 1797 Sydney, parents Thomas Smith, Ann Colpitts
 
Elizabeth Smith, b 1799 Hawkesbury; m abt 1828 John BAILEY, St Albans NSW; d 26 Mar, 1846
 
Elizabeth SMITH, b abt 1799 Macdonald River, parents Joseph SMITH and Mrs Joseph SMITH; d 26 Mar, 1846

Elizabeth Smith, b 1802 Hawkesbury, parents Joseph SMITH, Margaret HOLMES; d 26 Mar, 1846

Not much help, I'm afraid 

From NSW BMDs
Marriage for Joseph SMITH and Margaret HOLMES at St Matthews Windsor, 1812; Ref:
V18121407 3A/1812

Also some births with parents listed as John BAILEY and  Elizabeth (SMITH).  There are more with mother just as Elizabeth without the SMITH mentioned.  No districts given on these early ones.

V1832652 18/1832   John BAILEY 
V18452082 31A/1845  John BAILEY 
V18341086 18/1834  Thomas BAILEY 

Judith

[judb]

In the Convict muster lists, General Muster of 1822 Joseph SMITH from the Neptune is a landholder at Windsor.  Muster of 1811 states he was tried at The Old Bailey.

The 1828 NSW census shows
Joseph SMITH age 55, ship Neptune arrived 1790, convicted for life, FS ?
Margaret SMITH, age 54, ship Mary Ann arrived 1791, convicted 7 years, FS ?
These two are bracketed together with occupation 'farmer'.  301 acres, 7 horses, 204 horned cattle.  The place is VERY hard to read - looks like "Portld?? Head".  Looking at Googlemap there is a Portland Head Rd, Ebenezer NSW so maybe this is the place.


None of which answers your aim to find Elizabeth's parents.

Judith

[grumpier]

Thanks for all the responses! 
I have followed the Elizabeth Smith born 1797 (Father Thomas mother Ann Colpits) and she is not my Elizabeth. My Elizabeth is buried at the Bailey farm under the name of Smith though she had 7 children to John Bailey (known as Governer Bailey) at St. Albans. They were my husbands gggggranparents.  I am sure this is my Elizabeth but I am still looking for Joseph Smith.  Thanks again shall just keep hunting.

Grumpier

[Sonts]

Hi Grumpier,
Like you I'm new to the site and I'm also new to family history / genealogy but trying to begin somewhere and your enquiry came to light as a google search...maybe I can help a little.
Elizabeth Smith & John Bailey are my 3 x great g.p. My understanding is that they were a common law couple. Elizabeth was the result of a union / marriage between Joseph Smith (2nd fleet etc) and an Aboriginal lady from the local Dharug / Daruk (various spellings) people with traditional lands at Ebenezer etc on the Macdonald River. I'm trying to find some more info re the truth behind this family legend but indigenous geneaology is difficult to trace! Caroline Chisolm interviewed Mr & Mrs Joseph Smith in 1845 as part of her study / interviews on migration. It is noted that Mrs Smith was blind but makes no mention of being indigenous. Perhaps Mrs Smith was indigenous or Joseph had an earlier liasion? I'm sure you know Guvna Bailey was one of 40 children by the 2 Bailey brothers John & William and Guvna himself had 7 children with Elizabeth + 13 with his second wife Eleanor! With breeders like that anything is possible! I'm continuing to work on the indigenous 4 x great g. mother & would like to keep in contact.

[Dundee]

Caroline Chisolm interviewed Mr & Mrs Joseph Smith in 1845 as part of her study / interviews on migration. It is noted that Mrs Smith was blind but makes no mention of being indigenous. Perhaps Mrs Smith was indigenous or Joseph had an earlier liasion?

As Judith said, Joseph SMITH married Margaret HOLMES in 1812, and they are together on the 1828 census.  Margaret was not indigenous, she arrived on the Mary Ann in 1791 and appears to have had several relationships before marrying Joseph.  To find if any of the events before 1812 are connected to your Joseph, you would have to check the original records. Does Joseph's death certificate list his children?  What infromation do you have that makes you think Joseph is Elizabeth's father?

Debra

[grumpier]

Re: Joseph Smith

I have traced Elizabeth Smith back to her common law marriage to John Bailey, therefore confirming that she is my family’s Elizabeth.  When trying to trace her parents I found two Elizabeth’s.  The first had parents listed as Thomas Smith and Ann Colpitts. But our family tree did not trace to this couple. (Unfortunate as I would have loved to have First Fleeters in our family).  The other Elizabeth has no birth record but through a private source I have been told her father was Joseph, mother unknown but believed to be aboriginal. This brings me to Joseph Smith.

The only Joseph Smiths in the Hawkesbury at that time was Joseph Smith, convict from the Neptune, and his son Joseph born 1804.

Joseph did marry Margaret Holmes in 1812.  They had a common law marriage prior to that from 1802.

In the book “The Second Fleet – Britain’s Grim Convict Armada of 1790” by Michael Flynn it was recorded that in 1806 the couple were supporting 4 children.  Margaret had 4 children prior to her becoming the partner of Joseph but two of these children died by 1799, which left 2 of Margarets children, plus one child with Joseph, and Elizabeth to make up the four  recorded.  (Margaret and Joseph’s other 2 children were born after ths 1806 record).  And again on his death certificate it only lists 3 children to Margaret.  We have Elizabeth born c 1799 prior to Joseph and Margaret getting together. Margaret was in another relationship at this time.

Elizabeth Smith had a common law marriage to John Bailey.  A map of the Mcdonald Valley, Hawkesbury in the early 1800’s shows much land belonging to the Smiths and the Baileys.  Thinking back to those early days, people did not travel far and it is not inconceivable that before they married Elizabeth lived close by to John. This can be seen  in fly map from the book  “The forgotten Valley” by Marjorie Hutton Neve.

I have searched for information of Elizabeth’s parentage on many sites, many forums. I know that you can not take forum information as THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH but just about every one that I have  read lists Elizabeth as Father Joseph Smith mother Aboriginal.   (A lot of information from the Hunter Valley Geneology Forum). As records of that time are hard to trace and indigenous genealogy almost impossible, I do not know how to go any further.  Again the only Joseph Smith I could find in that area at that time was Joseph from the convict ship Neptune.
 
All this information was placed before Mrs J Woollard, a noted family historian from the Southern Highlands and she reached the conclusion that there was a 99% chance that Elizabeth was a child of Joseph.  I would love to have proof absolute that Elizabeth is this Joseph’s child but I have not been able to find proof that she is not his child and until I do will accept that this is likely to be correct.  If anyone has proof or information contrary to this please let us know.
Grumpier.