Author Topic: ANGLO ZULU WAR 11 JAN 1879  (Read 12668 times)

Offline caro-dee

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Re: ANGLO ZULU WAR 11 JAN 1879
« Reply #18 on: Friday 16 November 12 17:33 GMT (UK) »
Many many thanks Isandlwana for your most interesting and informative reply and for taking such trouble to go into all the detail.  It certainly tells me my ggfather's story out there in S. Africa.  I have often watched 'Zulu' and 'Zulu Dawn' and wondered whereabouts Robert Whinham would have been in the action, next time they are on TV I shall be sure to have your email to hand!  I only hope his end was quick, poor fellow.  It must have been an emotional day for you and all who were there in 1999 when the memorial was unveiled beneath that terrible hill.
Robert Whinham was born on the Alnwick Castle estate where his father was gamekeeper to the Duke (of Northumberland).  Robert was there in the 1861 Census, as 'ag. lab.'  He is missing from the 1871 census, no doubt abroad with his regiment.  He was back in Woolwich in 1876 for his marriage in June and was gone as you say, in Jan 1878.
Attached is his memorial card.
Many thanks again
Regards Caroline
Parsons-Somerset
Ballam-Dorset
Whinham-Northumberland
Frazier-Middlesex
Atwell-Somerset
Carrington-Norfolk
Harvey-Glos.

Offline John Young

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Re: ANGLO ZULU WAR 11 JAN 1879
« Reply #19 on: Friday 16 November 12 23:53 GMT (UK) »
Caroline,

Only too happy to help.

A wonderful memorial card, and interesting as the age on the card doesn't tally with his enlistment age, maybe his height was a factor in what appears to be his underage enlistment.

I thought you might like to see the two 7-pounders of the Battery after they had been recovered on 11th August 1879.  Lieutenant-General Sir Garnet Wolseley, who replaced Lord Chelmsford in the field, had them brought into his camp and placed again under the Union Flag.


The cannon of N Battery, 5th Brigade, Royal Artillery.

Here is a photograph of Brevet Major Stuart Smith, who assumed command of the guns during the morning of 22nd January 1879.


Brevet Major Stuart Smith

Major Smith was killed on the Zulu bank of the Buffalo River.

I'm at Isandlwana in January, I try and take a decent photograph of N/5's memorial and post it here so you can see it.

Regards,

Isandlwana
...Neither praise nor blame add to their epitaph but like it be simple as that which marked Thermopylae.
Tell it in England those that pass us by, here, faithful to their charge, her soldiers lie.

Offline Rena

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Re: ANGLO ZULU WAR 11 JAN 1879
« Reply #20 on: Saturday 17 November 12 01:33 GMT (UK) »
I keep coming across this thread and I can't contain myself any longer in asking if you know whether there was any fighting near Tarkastad, which is near Cradock? 

My grandfather's brother went out there sometime after 1876 and died 8th May 1879 aged 27.  I haven't got his death cert., but the Death Notice states he was a salesman, although I suppose he could have belonged to one of the home guard militias but I've not yet found a list for the local group.

Thanks in advance
Rena
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy<br />MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell<br />Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie<br />Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell<br />Perthshire: Brown Ferguson<br />Wales: McCarthy, Thomas<br />England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells<br />Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke


Offline km1971

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Re: ANGLO ZULU WAR 11 JAN 1879
« Reply #21 on: Saturday 17 November 12 05:27 GMT (UK) »
Hi Rena

If it is the Cradock north of Port Elizabeth than it is 8-900 miles west of Zululand.

Ken

Offline km1971

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Re: ANGLO ZULU WAR 11 JAN 1879
« Reply #22 on: Saturday 17 November 12 07:34 GMT (UK) »
Hi Caroline

As Isandlwana says a wonderful memorial card (and photograph). Here hopefully is a photograph of the battlefield. It is taken at the start of the ‘dead ground’ just in front of the initial location of the two guns. Their location is marked by the two nearest white markers – right of centre. The other white dots are piles of stones covering the remains which were gathered together when the site was revisited six months after the battle. There is a big cluster over to the top left towards where the main camp was located. This was on the saddle between the two hills, and is about half a mile from the initial gun position.

If you PM me with an email address I will send you a better version plus one of the RA memorial. You will be pleased to hear that his name is spelt correctly.

This link - http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/britishguide/zulu/despatch4_isandhlwana_isandlwana.htm - gives the accounts presented to a local court of enquiry two weeks later. The last statement (B) is from the surviving RA officer. Farrier Sergeant Whinham was the senior of the two sergeants killed. A witness saw one RA sergeant killed on the retreat through the camp. The other was most likely killed on the way to Fugitive’s Drift.

It is generally accepted that the guns were badly positioned. There is a lot of dead ground in front of them that meant the Zulus disappeared from view only to reappear again about 100 yards away. They were also too far forward – they were virtually on the infantry firing line – so when the infantry retired the guns were unable to do an orderly retreat. They lost the ammunition (in the limbers) and after that could only try and save the guns. But by then it was too late. Chelmsford, Durnford and Pulliene did not know where the Zulus where and if the camp had been fortified based around the saddle between the two hills, the Zulus would probably not have attacked. In other battles a quickly thrown up defensive position always managed to fend off a Zulu attack.

Both films have a bit of added ‘hollywood’. In Zulu Dawn there was no rift between Chelmsford and Durnford. Durnford was told to come up and take command. In Zulu the main problem is that Stanley Baker (who financed the film) turned it into a welsh movie.

Ken

Offline Rena

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Re: ANGLO ZULU WAR 11 JAN 1879
« Reply #23 on: Saturday 17 November 12 11:51 GMT (UK) »
Hi Rena

If it is the Cradock north of Port Elizabeth than it is 8-900 miles west of Zululand.

Ken

Thanks Ken
Yes, I could see by the map it's a few milimetres west of the famous Zululand battle(s)  ;D but I thought; "if you never ask, you never know" and I thought maybe another tribe had had a few skirmishes.

Thanks again,
Rena 
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy<br />MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell<br />Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie<br />Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell<br />Perthshire: Brown Ferguson<br />Wales: McCarthy, Thomas<br />England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells<br />Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline John Young

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Re: ANGLO ZULU WAR 11 JAN 1879
« Reply #24 on: Saturday 17 November 12 12:20 GMT (UK) »
Rena,

To put it politely, local resistance to the British Confederation Policy in that area of the Eastern Cape had been pacified by mid-1878.

I take it you have searched the National Archives of South Africa for any correspondence held in Cape repository relating to his death?

Isandlwana
...Neither praise nor blame add to their epitaph but like it be simple as that which marked Thermopylae.
Tell it in England those that pass us by, here, faithful to their charge, her soldiers lie.

Offline Rena

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Re: ANGLO ZULU WAR 11 JAN 1879
« Reply #25 on: Saturday 17 November 12 13:09 GMT (UK) »
Rena,

To put it politely, local resistance to the British Confederation Policy in that area of the Eastern Cape had been pacified by mid-1878.

I take it you have searched the National Archives of South Africa for any correspondence held in Cape repository relating to his death?

Isandlwana

Yes I saw his name in NAAIRS online. There was supposed to be a folder for each of the Death Notice/Death Cert/Will.  However, a local am. researcher only found the death notice dated May, which was signed by his widow pregnant with their first child. A comment at the top of the DN was "Filed 8th November 1879".   The Will folder was empty and no sign of the death cert.  The widow married shortly afterwards, was widowed again & brought 2 sons back to Scotland - aged 10 & 11 on Scottish census. I haven't found any births/marriages records but I live in hopes.

I didn't request official archivist research because at the time there were quite a few negative comments about that route.

Thanks again and I apologise for having disrupted this thread.

Rena
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy<br />MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell<br />Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie<br />Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell<br />Perthshire: Brown Ferguson<br />Wales: McCarthy, Thomas<br />England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells<br />Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline caro-dee

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Re: ANGLO ZULU WAR 11 JAN 1879
« Reply #26 on: Saturday 17 November 12 16:54 GMT (UK) »
Hello Isandlwana,
Thank you for the email and poignant photographs.  Yes the dates are wrong for Rbt. Whinham's birth, he was baptized on 21 May 1848.  Mind you his widow gave her own age as 10 years younger in other censuses and also when she married again in 1896, either Maths. or the truth were not her strong points!
I had searched the internet for a photo of the memorial some time ago without any luck, it would be lovely to see one.
Are you also descended from one of the fallen -  or perhaps one of the survivors?
Regards Caroline.
Parsons-Somerset
Ballam-Dorset
Whinham-Northumberland
Frazier-Middlesex
Atwell-Somerset
Carrington-Norfolk
Harvey-Glos.