clan ian ruadh

[tyrltyrl]

hello, does anyone know anything about the clan ian ruadh. thankyou
macca

[aghadowey]

Duplicate post on CANADA board-
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,434075.0/topicseen.html

[Peter MacDonald]

Hello,

I would say that the posted link has very little information with regard to Clan Ian Ruadh.  A few of the articles on the Moidart History Group site make a brief mention of Clan Ian Ruadh, however, they do not speak of the Clan's origin or history.

If anyone has any further information on this cadet branch of Clan Donald I would be very interested to hear it.

Thanks.

Peter MacDonald

[gazzamacca]

Thanks for your help everybody, i have found what i was looking for.
macca

[Peter MacDonald]

I started using genetics in 2010 to assist with my MacDonald paternal ancestry. Up until this point I had my line traced back to my 5x Great Grandfather Martin MacDonald who was born in 1755 and passed away in 1836 in Knoydart, Nova Scotia (the area he settled in 1785, which he is attributed to naming after where he emigrated from in Scotland). The results of my first Y DNA test indicated that my paternal line was not of the Clan Donald Chiefly lines and I would have to search elsewhere for the origins of direct paternal line. Overlapping with the timeframe which I received my results I became aware of Martin MacDonald (1755-1836) being included in genealogical charts from the Glengarry, Ontario area of Canada. Further to the knowledge of these charts it was also discovered that Martin’s son John MacDonald died in the Glengarry, Ontario area in 1858 where his death was recorded by the St Columbian Roman Catholic Church and also by a priest (Father John MacDonald) who kept genealogical records of Scottish emigrants. In Father John’s diary, the death of John MacDonald records him as coming from Nova Scotia and being the son of Martin, son of Donald, son of John, son of Angus.  Heading back to the genealogical charts …. Although the charts listed the names of ancestors, genealogists (both professional and amateur) where unable to answer basic questions pertaining to Clan Iain Ruadh, such as an overall history of the Clan, timeline or geographic origins. One major issue with the charts showed the Clan Chiefs to be of the Haplogroup R1A, where I was R1B. After playing around with this idea of descending from Clan Iain Ruadh, I eventually wrote off my Family’s inclusion onto these charts. I believed at the time Martin MacDonald’s mentioned as a mistake and/or possibly fabricated and continued my searching for my paternal ancestry elsewhere, even though I did have paternal Y DNA matches from the Glengarry area of Canada (with genealogies not showing a linkage to my paternal line).

My belief of not belonging to Clan Iain Ruadh was put to rest in February 2017 when I received an email from Garry MacDonell Garry had a Y DNA match with me and upon further testing we were able to determine we were both positive for the SNP BY154, which indicated a fairly recent (in genealogical terms) common paternal ancestor. Garry and I had not shared any type of research, however both of our Families had traditions of descending from Clan Iain Ruadh. Any remote disbelieve of descending from Clan Iain Ruadh melted away upon receiving a gravestone picture from Garry of the Auchterawe Roman Catholic burial ground in Inverness, Scotland. The gravestone belongs to Garry’s 3x Great Grandfather John MacDonell, on the gravestone (which was erected by John MacDonell’s son Captain Ewen Macdonell) “..John MacDonell of Clan Iain Ruadh..”. This connection was the motivation I needed to keep my research going.

My research had another two breaks with two testers from the Glengarry, Ontario area who had family traditions and paper trails of paternal descent from Clan Ian Ruadh. Both testers have matched closely to myself and other persons who are BY154+ and have genealogies that actually appear to fit into the older genealogical charts from the Glengayy, Ontario area I previously mentioned. One of these tester's ancestors (a father and son) where Loyalists who petitioned for Land in the Glengarry area. In their petitions, the son Duncan McDonell states that he was “from Glen Morrison, Late of Tryon County, N.Y. Province…came to Canada in 1780”.  The father, John McDonell states at the time of the petition he was from “…Lot 17, Cornwall Township, N. Johnson, Late of
Tryon County, N. York Province…”

This is an area for further research, perhaps the family when in Scotland relocated from Knoydart to Glenmoriston, however it is most likely that the was originally from Glenmoriston. Important to note that there is a Clan Iain Ruadh MacDonald Sept that originated in Glenmoriston.

While I have had the opportunity to connect with my MacDonald kin and have been forming a picture of to whom and how we are related to one another through a combination of traditional paper trails and advanced Y DNA testing, there is still much more research to be done.

[Peter MacDonald]

Wondering whether anyone reading this thread has a paper tail or a Family Tradition  of being a direct paternal descendant (or has a Father, brother, or male 1st cousin who is) of Clan iain Ruadh?  If so, very interested to hear from you.  Please post a reply.

[kfrye173]

Sorting out the Clan Iain Ruadh (CIR) groupings can be confusing, one person on a genealogy site offered up this thought that I have come to believe is probably more correct than not: briefly and paraphrasing... There is a high probability that there were quite a number of highland families that used the fairly common name of CIR.   

There is also confusion and debate as to whether it was really a separate "officially" recognized Clan or a Sept, or whether there was a Clan and a couple aligned septs occupying different areas, still foggy.  Did it arise to such a level of power as to be recognized as a Clan?

I can easily think that there were probably at least three CIR groupings based on current DNA, old trees and family lore:

1) the Haplo R1a chiefly line CIR that is referred to in old Clan Donald family trees.  Assuming that the Y DNA signature was not replaced at some point with an R1b, which would really scramble some eggs ?

2) the Haplo R1b CIR that is mentioned in history occupying the Glenmoriston area well before and during the Grant importation, and by existing DNA signatures and scant family lore of two individuals who lived in the hills above Glenmoriston (unknown whether they or their relatives are still alive),  this CIR grouping appears to be aligned with the R-BY150 Y group.

3) Another Haplo R1b CIR that appears to be associated with Loupe/Knoydart yet different than the Glenmoriston group (for at least the last 800 years) and looks to be associated with the above Peter as R-BY154. 

I have a number of john roy McD's in a branch of my tree who herald from Knoydart, but their Haplo group is I-M253 which is a common Viking marker.  Nonetheless I wonder if they are a"sept" or groupie, lol, of CIR?

Are there more CIR groupings out there, probably.  Is what I state above potentially inaccurate, you bet.  More testing and research will be required, sigh. 

I think someone told me that the Clan McDonald DNA website designated the 2nd group above as being CIR, that would be somewhat erroneous in that there appear to be at least three separate groupings as indicated above, so maybe a little premature if not deficient in scope.

[Peter MacDonald]

Sorting out the Clan Iain Ruadh (CIR) groupings can be confusing, one person on a genealogy site offered up this thought that I have come to believe is probably more correct than not: briefly and paraphrasing... There is a high probability that there were quite a number of highland families that used the fairly common name of CIR.   

There is also confusion and debate as to whether it was really a separate "officially" recognized Clan or a Sept, or whether there was a Clan and a couple aligned septs occupying different areas, still foggy.  Did it arise to such a level of power as to be recognized as a Clan?

I can easily think that there were probably at least three CIR groupings based on current DNA, old trees and family lore:

1) the Haplo R1a chiefly line CIR that is referred to in old Clan Donald family trees.  Assuming that the Y DNA signature was not replaced at some point with an R1b, which would really scramble some eggs ?

2) the Haplo R1b CIR that is mentioned in history occupying the Glenmoriston area well before and during the Grant importation, and by existing DNA signatures and scant family lore of two individuals who lived in the hills above Glenmoriston (unknown whether they or their relatives are still alive),  this CIR grouping appears to be aligned with the R-BY150 Y group.

3) Another Haplo R1b CIR that appears to be associated with Loupe/Knoydart yet different than the Glenmoriston group (for at least the last 800 years) and looks to be associated with the above Peter as R-BY154. 

I have a number of john roy McD's in a branch of my tree who herald from Knoydart, but their Haplo group is I-M253 which is a common Viking marker.  Nonetheless I wonder if they are a"sept" or groupie, lol, of CIR?

Are there more CIR groupings out there, probably.  Is what I state above potentially inaccurate, you bet.  More testing and research will be required, sigh. 

I think someone told me that the Clan McDonald DNA website designated the 2nd group above as being CIR, that would be somewhat erroneous in that there appear to be at least three separate groupings as indicated above, so maybe a little premature if not deficient in scope.

Very Interesting Kevin,

Most of the clan Iain Ruadh lines from Glenmoriston Ontario are BY154 with the exception as you have noted as I-M253.

In the book Story and Song from the Loch Ness-Side by Alexander Macdonald he notes that “…The Glen was held of the Lord of the Isles by four or five families of the Mac-Donald Clan, as vassals, who survive in local story as " Clann-Iain-Ruaidh," " Clann-Iain-Chaoil," " Clann-Ill-Easbuig," " Clann-Eoghainn-Bhain," and " Clann-Alasdair." As a rule, the chief among these, who would appear latterly to have been " Mac-Iain-Ruaidh,….”.

Alexander Macdonald was a direct paternal descendant of the lann-Iain-Chaoil.  Interesting to note that he mentions that the Glen was held by four or five families of the Mac-Donald Clan but does not mention any connection between the Families, unlike William MacKay (who wrote URQUHART AND GLENMORISTON OLDEN TIMES IN A HIGHLAND PARISH).

William MacKay in his book stated: "There were five Septs of Macdonalds in Glenmoriston—Clann Iain Ruaidh, Clann Iain Chaoil, Clann Eobhainn Bhain, Sliochd Ghilleasbuig, and Clann Alasdair Choire-Dho. The first four were descended from four sons of Iain Mor Ruidh nan Stop.”.

[kfrye173]

I would love to reach back in time and snatch up the records from the late 1600s through 1746 as so much perished post Culloden.  There is one stash of documents from GM that exist and are held tightly by the current Laird/Chief/?? Grant of GM and they are business documents related to the occupants of the GM with many going back to the 1600's.

Just by the titles of the documents that you can see (indexed at the library in Edinburgh), you can find people and relationships that are very informative.  So far a couple of us have requested to see them, but receive a fairly stern "No" response from the owner even though we offer to pay the large $$$s to copy the same.

This is unfortunate as it could help many groups looking into their family roots, be they Grants, MacDonalds, Chisolms, Camerons, Frasers etc   And as that there were so many GM Grant- MacDonald marriages, This could certainly help nail down so many of the family trees from that area.

maybe 20 years from now they will be available ??