Author Topic: Challenge to all you puzzle-solvers out there!  (Read 8307 times)

Offline bel_jon68

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Challenge to all you puzzle-solvers out there!
« on: Wednesday 12 May 04 22:43 BST (UK) »
I have a problem with my g-g-grandfather.  Can anyone help please?

1871 Census:
George ARTHUR (29) Head
Elizabeth ARTHUR (23) Wife
Hannah Arthur (14) Sister-in-law
John Roberts Arthur (2mo)

1881 Census:
George ARTHUR (37) Head
Hannah ARTHUR (27) Wife
John Roberts Arthur (b1871)
Sephorah Jane Arthur (b1873)
Allin Thomas Arthur (b1875)
George Henry Arthur (b1877)
Evan Lloyd (b1879)

So, at some point between 1871 and 1881, George remarried.  However, there doesn't seem to be a respectable gap between the children (and there were more to come) to allow for the death of Elizabeth and the marriage to Hannah.

Things I don't know are:
Elizabeth's maiden name - if Hannah is George's sister-in-law in 1871, with surname Arthur, this means Elizabeth is Elizabeth Arthur, but I can find no record of a George Arthur marrying an Elizabeth Arthur.  I have found a George Arthur m Elizabeth ROBERTS (which might explain the unusual middle name of the first-born son).  I have also found a George Arthur marrying a Hannah Roberts, and the death of an Elizabeth Arthur age 24 a few months after the eldest son was born.  AM I MAKING DANGEROUS ASSUMPTIONS?
Who is Hannah Arthur?  Is she the Hannah who was Elizabeth's sister and has gained 3 years in age by 1881?  Or is she a completely different Hannah?  I have found a number of potenial Hannahs m potential George Arthurs between 1871 and 1881.

Any suggestions on what to do here (other than ordering all the birth certificates for the children?)

Another problem with George is that his age is given as 29/37/46/59 ON THE 1871-1901 census returns, so I can't track down his birth certificate (there are a LOT of George Arthurs born in Denbighshire in the 1840s!).  Anyone any ideas?

I'm also having trouble tracking down the births of 4 of the children (out of the 11 I know of) and they all have quite unusual names - again, any suggestions?

All I do know about George is that he was a Police Officer in 1871/1881/1891 and 1901 (he'd retired by 1911).  I would love to get hold of his birth certificate, but he's a bit slippery - are there any Police archives that would have info about serving officers in Wales during the decades in question?  I've found a few police history sites, but all seem to be focused on England/The Met.

Any comments/queries/suggestions would be gratefully received as George is leading me a right merry dance!
Researching
ARTHUR, ROBERTS, LEWIS and WILLIAMS in Denbighshire/Merionethshire/Glamorgan
EVANS and JONES in Montgomeryshire
FALLOW(E)S, JONES, PREECE and GITTON in Shropshire
and the list keeps growing...
(March 2006) Now looking for HINKS, SPARKES, INGRAM from West Midlands area

Offline Chris in 1066Land

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Re:Challenge to all you puzzle-solvers out there!
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 12 May 04 23:02 BST (UK) »
Hi

Just a few thoughts

there doesn't seem to be a respectable gap between the children (and there were more to come) to allow for the death of Elizabeth and the marriage to Hannah.

He had young children and no social security like there is today - he had to keep working; this meant getting married quickly, very often it was a sister of his ex-wife, or even her best mate - but he had to get someone to look after the kids so that he could work.

Elizabeth's maiden name - if Hannah is George's sister-in-law in 1871, with surname Arthur, this means Elizabeth is Elizabeth Arthur, but I can find no record of a George Arthur marrying an Elizabeth Arthur.  I have found a George Arthur m Elizabeth ROBERTS (which might explain the unusual middle name of the first-born son).  I have also found a George Arthur marrying a Hannah Roberts, and the death of an Elizabeth Arthur age 24 a few months after the eldest son was born.  AM I MAKING DANGEROUS ASSUMPTIONS?

I have got to agree with your assumptions here - we know Enumerators copied the actual census details onto their own returns and then the original was destroyed - It is more than likely he made a small mistake in the copying. (have you had sight of the census scan, or are you working on a transcription)

Who is Hannah Arthur?  Is she the Hannah who was Elizabeth's sister and has gained 3 years in age by 1881?  Or is she a completely different Hannah?  I have found a number of potenial Hannahs m potential George Arthurs between 1871 and 1881.

Think you have to play this one by ear till you get a definite death date for Elizabeth and a marriage date for Hannah - but it is highly likely.

Another problem with George is that his age is given as 29/37/46/59 ON THE 1871-1901 census returns

The first census and the last census agree, so what is your problem (He had to make himself younger on the other census cos he had a young wife)

All I do know about George is that he was a Police Officer in 1871/1881/1891 and 1901 (he'd retired by 1911).  

Yes, there are lots of police archives, where was he stationed. I will try to find the web address for the police archive.

Hope some of the above helped you

Chris in 1066Land




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Information contained within Census Lookups is Crown Copyright:  www.nationalarchives.gov

Offline Chris in 1066Land

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Re:Challenge to all you puzzle-solvers out there!
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 12 May 04 23:17 BST (UK) »
Hi

Some Police Contacts that will have links to other Police Sites.

PoliceUK.com | Police Related Books
Online resource for police recruitment and general policing information in the UK ... from the 18th century onwards draws on largely unused police archives. The text addresses all the major issues of ... www.policeuk.com  

Part 1: The Police Gazette, issues for 1866-1878, 1882-1897 & 1899-1900
THE POLICE GAZETTE Part 1: The Police Gazette, issues for 1866-1878, 1882-1897 & 1899-1900 from the Cambridgeshire Police Archives 12 reels of 35mm silver-halide positive microfilm plus guide "No ... www.adam-matthew-publications.co.uk  

Metropolitan Police Service - History
The history of the Metropolitan Police Service ... history, illustrated with over 250 images from the Metropolitan Police archives. Buy online by clicking here (once at ... www.met.police.uk  

West Midlands Police: Crime and Punishment
... Here are extracts from the West Midlands Police archives, giving a glimpse of the life of a policeman in Victorian ... www.stvincent.ac.uk  

Chris in 1066Land
One of Rootschats Founder Members
Living at the Heart of English History in 1066Land.      www.Rootschat.com/history/hastings
Own Ancestral Website:    http://maythornemill.webs.com and
                                            www.swarbrooke.com
Monumental Sculptures Website:    http://Tombstones.webs.com
NEW - Local History Site: http://zouch.webs.com
NEW - Local History site: http://Baldslow.com
Information contained within Census Lookups is Crown Copyright:  www.nationalarchives.gov


Offline D ap D

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Re:Challenge to all you puzzle-solvers out there!
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 13 May 04 08:20 BST (UK) »
You might also find some help if you get in touch with the North Wales police headquarters in Colwyn Bay (formerly Denbs, then Clwyd, now Conwy).

(01492)  517171
 
Abergele Rd
Old Colwyn
LL29 8AW

Good luck,
D ap D
Stuck with:
William Williams of Llanllyfni
John Jones in Llanelli
Evan Evans in Caio
David Davies of Llansanffraid
Evans: Caio/Carms
Jones: CDG, DEN

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Nor do I think that any other nation than this of Wales, or any other tongue, whatever may hereafter come to pass, shall on the day of the great reckoning before the Most High Judge, answer for this corner of the earth": The Old Man of Pencader to Henry II

Offline jaq

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Re:Challenge to all you puzzle-solvers out there!
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 13 May 04 12:04 BST (UK) »
concerning George the policeman another site to search [which has now been updated and is better than my last comments  :-[ ] is
http://www.policeorders.co.uk/

there are several Arthur surnames but as yet i havent seen George. I'll have another look for you later.dont suppose you have a warrant / shoulder number?  ???
and with all the other ideas members have offered, looks like you got a bit to be getting on with. [great site this  ;) ]
jaq
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Offline bel_jon68

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Re:Challenge to all you puzzle-solvers out there!
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 13 May 04 13:18 BST (UK) »
Thanks to all of you for the helpful comments and suggestions.  As you may have gathered, I'm new to all this and it's great to have people like you who are so willing to help out and share your knowledge.

I'm so glad I found this site - it's the best!
Researching
ARTHUR, ROBERTS, LEWIS and WILLIAMS in Denbighshire/Merionethshire/Glamorgan
EVANS and JONES in Montgomeryshire
FALLOW(E)S, JONES, PREECE and GITTON in Shropshire
and the list keeps growing...
(March 2006) Now looking for HINKS, SPARKES, INGRAM from West Midlands area

Offline Kazza

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Re:Challenge to all you puzzle-solvers out there!
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 13 May 04 19:17 BST (UK) »
jaq and bel_jon68,

You are right,  this is a great site,  it's the users like you that make it great.   ;)

bel_jon68,  good luck with your search,  and let us know how you get on.

Kazza.
Welsh Lass
Surname interests:
Clementsten, Hobson, Hole, Marden, O'Clements, Pitten, Sharland, Vickery (Vicary), Williams.

Area Interests:
Cardiff, Bampton, Bideford, Crediton, Wollaston, Somerset, Tidenham, Norway, Australia to Bristol.

Offline anne

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Re:Challenge to all you puzzle-solvers out there!
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 18 May 04 15:13 BST (UK) »
I have to add my little bit regarding the kindness and support from members on this site.I was looking for an ancestor from Isle of Lewis on the Ross and Cromatary site and this very kind person{cant thank him enough}gave up some of his credits to search Scotlands people for me.You dont get many people like that that actually spend their own money to help someone else.I find this incredible,but thats rootschat a great site with great members.Thankyou.Anne. ;)
Ayrshire,Kennedy,Faulds,Cuthbert,Crawford,Young,Edgar,Bell
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Offline granny13

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Re:Challenge to all you puzzle-solvers out there!
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 20 May 04 18:13 BST (UK) »
Hi there, you could consider getting just the eldest 2's birth certificates as the eldest was Elizabeth's and the 2nd one Hannah's so you should find both their maiden names on them.

Jean