Author Topic: Scargill/Leather/Kaye/Gill families in Emley  (Read 6268 times)

Offline Holmemoss

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Re: Scargill/Leather/Kaye/Gill families in Emley
« Reply #27 on: Sunday 03 June 18 17:50 BST (UK) »
Hello Angela and welcome to Rootschat.

Please understand life was different in the late 1800s, there was very little mobility so people tended to stay in the village where they were born; families were large so people were often inter-related and very close knit.

There was no contraception and illegitimate babies were not uncommon and they could quite easily have been given a different surname in the census to disguise the illegitimacy. Women died in childbirth so the father gave the baby away because he couldn't look after it, again possibly resulting in a different surname.

All of us conducting our family history cannot assume and jump to conclusions, we have to have documentary evidence.

Emley1786 says Elizabeth was born on 14th August, 1897 but you say 1898 - what evidence do you have for 1898?
All WRY (Holmfirth/Linthwaite/Rastrick /Elland/Kirkburton/Barnsley)- Broadbent, Brook, Cartwright, Charlesworth, Dawson, Earnshaw, Ellis, Flather, Greaves, Hallas, Hirst, Holroyd, Houghland, Hoyle, Kilner, Littlewood, Mallinson, Mitchell, Morton, Scargill, Schofield, Swallow, Taylor, Youle

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Offline Emley1786

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Re: Scargill/Leather/Kaye/Gill families in Emley
« Reply #28 on: Monday 04 June 18 00:51 BST (UK) »
Hello Angela. The birth date of 14 Aug 1897 in the 1939 register would be from information given by Elizabeth Ann herself at the time. It is of course possible that the year may have been misheard or mistranscribed but other evidence does support Aug 1897 rather than Aug 1898 for her birth date. Firstly, Elizabeth Ann gave her age as 20 when she married in Apr 1918 and secondly her age was given as 70 when she died in the 4th quarter (Oct-Dec) of 1967. Thirdly, assuming she is the Elizabeth Leather on the 31 Mar 1901 and 2 Apr 1911 census, her stated age of 3 and 13 on these two returns would again align with her birth in Aug 1897 rather than Aug 1898. Where does your date of 1898 stem from? Based on information gleaned so far, I can only speculate as to why Elizabeth Ann could have been known both as Hill and Leather. As Holmemoss states, a frequent reason for this was illegitimacy and I have seen this many times in my research over the years. If the Oct 1897 baptism of Elizabeth Ann daughter of Hannah Hill at Dodworth is the same person who married Edgar, it could be that Ashley Leather was the father and that he and his wife Esther Hannah Leather later adopted Elizabeth Ann and used the surname Leather on the census returns. Unfortunately, the Dodworth baptism register did not record the date of birth as well as baptism and so there is no direct birth date evidence (i.e. 14 Aug)  to link this baptism to your grandmother. Ashley died in 1917 shortly before Elizabeth Ann was married and so is it possible that her true parentage was revealed at this time and she decided to use her birth surname subsequently - both for her marriage in 1918 and when giving her maiden name when registering the births of her three children between 1918 and 1931. In your first post, you mentioned that you thought that Elizabeth Ann was called Leather until you found her marriage record. What evidence do you have that she used the surname Leather? Do you have any information that corroborates a link with Ashley Leather? As Holmemoss states, we’re happy to try and help if we can and would appreciate any further information you have that would assist.
Scargill (all spelling variants): C12th to present day - worldwide
Rothwell/King-Irwin/Blake/Fry/Barnardo: C19th-C20th - Ireland

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Offline Angela Hutchinson

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Re: Scargill/Leather/Kaye/Gill families in Emley
« Reply #29 on: Monday 04 June 18 13:41 BST (UK) »
Hi to you both,l found the birth date on a web site at the library it gave me the 14th august1898 this was under leather in Emley. l am her granddaughter and have a childrens book she gave me it has her name and address in which was Leather, the names of Ashley walker no lastname and Ester Hannah peel also came up.sorry l hope this makes sense to you l have just started .

Offline Emley1786

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Re: Scargill/Leather/Kaye/Gill families in Emley
« Reply #30 on: Tuesday 05 June 18 00:18 BST (UK) »
Hi Angela. Can you let us know which website you looked at? Unless the website is citing an original historical source, e.g. parish register, birth certificate etc, I would urge caution in assuming the stated date is correct. There is a great deal of inaccurate family history information posted on the web. If the book your grandmother gave you has the names of Ashley and Esther Leather then this is a further indication that your grandmother is the Elizabeth Leather listed on the 1901/11 census as Ashley’s daughter. I had a look at the probate indexes for Ashley and Esther in 1917 and 1949 and also that of their son Lawrence Walker Leather in 1955 to see if there was any mention of Elizabeth Ann Hill or Scargill as an executor or administrator but unfortunately not. I also looked at the marriage record of Lawrence Leather to Glady Simms in 1933 at Thornes church near Wakefield in case it recorded Elizabeth Ann Scargill as a witness but again not unfortunately. The following is only a suggestion but it might be worth considering ordering a copy of the birth certificate for the Elizabeth Ann Hill birth registered at Wortley in 1897 to see if the date of birth aligns with 14 Aug 1897 stated by Elizabeth on the 1939 register and to see if the certificate reveals any further clues.
Scargill (all spelling variants): C12th to present day - worldwide
Rothwell/King-Irwin/Blake/Fry/Barnardo: C19th-C20th - Ireland

Offline Angela Hutchinson

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Re: Scargill/Leather/Kaye/Gill families in Emley
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday 05 June 18 12:30 BST (UK) »
Hi this is helpful l will take your advice and carry on. thank you.

Offline Holmemoss

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Re: Scargill/Leather/Kaye/Gill families in Emley
« Reply #32 on: Tuesday 05 June 18 14:15 BST (UK) »
Angela, I agree with Emley1786's statement - there is a lot of very inaccurate information posted on family history web sites. People also make mistakes - read nemley's post on 28th January, 2011 above.
Let us know if you order the birth certificate and what information it contains.
All WRY (Holmfirth/Linthwaite/Rastrick /Elland/Kirkburton/Barnsley)- Broadbent, Brook, Cartwright, Charlesworth, Dawson, Earnshaw, Ellis, Flather, Greaves, Hallas, Hirst, Holroyd, Houghland, Hoyle, Kilner, Littlewood, Mallinson, Mitchell, Morton, Scargill, Schofield, Swallow, Taylor, Youle