2 different arrival dates

[badmama]

Hi can anyone please help me by possibly explaining how my Gt Gt Gt Grandfather & Gt Gt grandfather Conrad Hoffman's have 2 different arrival dates fron Germany to England.
 
Alians Certificates HO2 in TNA at Kew
Lucretia & Conrad Hoffmann, broommakers from Darmstadt, at Dover, 21 April 1838.
Ludwig Hoffmann, strolling musician of Treis an der Lumda, at Dover, 10 January 1838
Johannes Hoffmann, labourer of Darmstadt, at Dover, 5 June 1838

BUT
Arrival from France to the Port of Dover. no. 658 and 667.
 
Date of Arrival 02.05.1841.

Conrad Hoffman  1st. Maria Hillbach, Willhelm, Vinoegel, Johannel, Lotz
Conrad Hoffman  2nd Lucretia Hoffman, Mantin Raul, George Witligt
Frank Hoffman,        Henry, Wittigt


Also could the name Lucretia be Elizabeth in English.

I do have them on the 1841 census in Manchester with my Gt Grandfather Francis Hoffman age 1. This is part of the reason I query these dates as Francis supposed to have been born Brignorth Shropshire which would be almost impossible to be age one in 1841 if he arrived in 1841, or would he have been born in Germany as I sussect but no records there either. I have hunted high & low for his birth registration around 1840 but I can't find him anywhere.

Any help will be fantastic

Kind regards
Ann

[coombs]

Hi Ann

It is possible they returned to Germany for some reason the came back to England.

Ben

[badmama]

Hi Ben
I suppose Conrad & Lucretia could have gone back for the rest of the family but why ?.

The elder Conrad born 1775 was a broommaker when he arrived and died in 1849, they lived in a cellar in 1841 so I wouldn't think they would have been able to pay for a trip back. I just have no idea.

Thank you for replying, any other thoughts on why the double entry for his arrival or another trip back to Germany are very, very, very welcome.

 

Kind regards
Ann

[KrissieD]

Hi

I am having the same problem with my relative who travelled with Conrad. Conrad Diebel. Your Conrad travelled more than twice he was back and forwards across channel quite a few times ( same signature on port of Dover entry as bearer). Also Philipp and Georg Weber were part of same crowd. Have you found any further information since you posted this? Conrad Diebel is down as a broom maker/basket maker and also on the 1948 entry as musician. Your Conrad is also down as a strolling musician on more than one of his entries.
All rather strange but interesting.
Found this online may interest you -

The Hurdy-Gurdy Girls

In the beginning of the 1800's bitter poverty ruled in wide areas of Hessen. This had several causes, including a population increase due to families having many children and subsequent division by inheritance of the land into ever-smaller pieces, to the extent that viable farming became impossible.

To supplement their incomes, in the 1820s farmers and farmworkers began to make wooden brooms and fly-whisks during the winter which they, as itinerant peddlers, sold in the summers in the surrounding areas. This trade soon expanded beyond the borders of Hessen and reached England, France and even Russia. 

It was soon discovered that the wares sold better when accompanied by dancing, hurdy-gurdy playing girls. Quickly the dancing and music became ever more important and the pretty girls became ever better known; it was soon realized that there was a lot of easy money to be made.

The success of the hurdy-gurdy girls then began to attract what in German are called "soul-merchants," who put the naive village girls under contract while enticing the parents with tales of how much money their children would be sending home; as a result, there were often no young women to be found in many villages of the region. The soul-merchants took the girls to dance halls and such, where the clientele was mostly sailors and miners. Thus the girls of Hessen came to nearly all countries of Europe, especially England (where they were called "Hurdy-Gurdy girls" and "Hessian Broom Girls") and also to Australia, Cuba and North America - where California was a particularly desirable destination, as the gold fields there promised brisk business, and where, because of their origins, they were also known as "Rhinelanders."

[badmama]

Hi KissieD
Thank you for all the information you posted.

I haven't got any further with Conrad, could you please give me the information "Conrad travelled more that twice"

I have had a look on the census for Georg and Philipp Weber and I can't find them, may I please have this information off you also.

Could your Diebel be Diehl ?

I had a look at the web sites on the Hurdy Gurdy Girls, fabulous thank you.

Any information is very much appreciated and what you have sent gives personality to Conrad.

" Conrad Diebel is down as a broom maker/basket maker and also on the 1948 entry as musician" can you please tell me what entry this is.

Thanks again 

Kind regards
Ann

[KrissieD]

Hi Ann
I will try and refind info as I write this.
Ancestry.co.uk-> Immigration & Travel-> name:Conrad Hofmann no dates arrival Dover

Conrad Hofmann I 2/5/1841  Broom Makers check signature of bearer at bottom
? Conrad Hofmann 19/5/1857
Conrad Hofmann 21/4/1858 Broom Makers
Conrad Hofmann 17/3/1843 Itinerant Musicians
Conrad Hofmann (second person along) 7/3/1842 Strolling Musicians
Conrad Hofmann with our relatives (Diebels) 27/2/1848  also Philipp Weber Musicians
Conrad Hofman and wife Elizabeth and children 10/10/1849 Dealer arrived in London

There are probably more but you need to look at the arrivals book which is long and thin as this has the signature of the leader of the party and you can check the hand writing. The other book which is upright is the passenger list, it also shows them but with less detail.
Philipp and Georg Weber came in with Conrad and Balthasar Diebel on 1/4/1841. they are all on 1841 census in a barn in Lincolnshire, England.
kind regards Chris

[KrissieD]

Hi again
Also found Georg Weber and Brother Philipp 8/4/1838 with Philipp Hofmann and Peter Reinech the Reinechs are frequently found in the travelling parties if you want to check them out as well. Conrad Reinech was in the group who arrived with both our ancestors 27/2/1848. It does seem like they were a group of travelling Broom Makers Also known as (Fliegenwedelhandels) Fly whisks in english. They were musicians as well as it made it easier to sell their wares (see previous post about this) It does not seem like they brought a load of young females over with them to do the dancing (glad about that, didn't seem very nice). My Husband does speak German but he went to night classes for that many years ago as he worked in Germany for a while with an English company. Nothing to do with the ancestors. This is all a very new find for us as we thought the Diebels came over to fit the gas lights in London. Although the ancestor was a gas works fitter when he died it seems that is not how they first came across. I have only just worked out that they were all travelling back and forth.

If you find out anything else please let me know
Best regards Chris (Suffolk, England) You ??

[badmama]

Hi Chris.
I have been scratching my head trying to find a connection to your Diebel family    .

I have my Hoffman family in Manchester in 1841.
There are 2 Conrad Hoffman's the one in Middlesex was born Germany 1811, my Conrad (Manchester) born 1813 Germany.

Can you please tell me what this means "No Dates"  Ancestry.co.uk-> Immigration & Travel-> name:Conrad Hofmann no dates arrival Dover and check signature of bearer at bottom
I haven't got a subscription on Ancestry anymore I changed it to Findmypast.

I think your family must be connected to the Hoffman family in Mile End Middlesex.
I thought for a while that it was the same person, I have Conrad (Middlesex ) naturalisation papers from 1860 when he was age 50, a marine store dealer, married with six children, at the time he had done very well for himself and had lots of properties, he had resided in England for 30 years.

Please let me know your thoughts as I might be completely wrong as my Conrad (1813) was a Musician and a broom maker, his father Conrad (1775) was a farmer and a broom maker. So, I wonder which of the Conrad Hoffman's were travelling.

(Fliegenwedelhandels) big word for fly whisks

(Suffolk, England) You ??

I live in Victoria, Australia
P.S. Francis Hoffman (1840) Conrad's son was sent to Australia for 10 years as a convict, but he made his way back about 1871, only 7 convict men returned.

Thank you
Kind Regards
Ann

[KrissieD]

Hi Ann

Sorry I thought you were on Ancestry and could search their data bases. the instructions with no date were how to search for Conrad Hofmann. Is there any way we can exchange email adresses? I could send you prints of the data entries. I am sure both Conrad Hofmanns Father and son wrer travelling as on one entry it said Conrad Hofmann 1st and Conrad Hoffman 2nd also another entry had Conrad Hofmann I. Our ancestor was Balthasar Diebel and he only travelled twice as far as I can see 1841 and 1848 it was his Brother Conrad Diebel that seemed to do all of the travelling. Balthasar settelled in London so possibly they had connections with the Hofmanns.