Are these the right parents ?

[jim1]

By 1841 William had moved to Arnold which is rural,hawking being a town occupation unless travelling.He probably wasn't making any money & didn't fancy lacemaking & who can blame him.

jim

[greyingrey]

Thanks to both of you.....yes, I think who William was (or who the Williams were) is the key here., although it's Lyon & Betsy who are (or should be....because the William issue is very interesting too) my main focus. For some time, I've discounted the William in Arnold as being from a different Asher family, but, as jim said, it could simply be that he decided to move out of the city centre  & thus became a labourer.

When I first started looking at this, I assumed that Lyon & the William who had the son Samuel Lyon (ie the one we know was a hawker in the city centre....whether he later  moved to Arnold or not) were brothers.....can't be sure of that....maybe William was a nephew or a cousin or a distant relative of some kind. What would be interesting about that would be that, IF they were brothers, IF this William was the one in Arnold with Elizabeth & IF the census is correct that William was born in Nottingham & not in Germany, then it would mean that Lyon's parents also came to Britain.

To complicate matters further (aaaarrrghj !) there was a Joseph Asher living cheek by jowl with Lyon & William in Nottingham city centre. At first I'd assumed that he, Lyon, & William were brothers, but Joseph was born in approx 1780 in Packington, Leicestershire. He seems to have been much more firmly established &, obviously, his parents were in Britain when he was born.....I don't know if they were part of the same family that came over earlier, a separate East European rooted/Jewish Asher family, or a "native British" Asher family. Today, I've had a message from someone who's researching Joseph & his line, so I might be able to piece something together with them.

Thanks to both of you very much

[Dizzifish]

Regarding Joseph, I did see he was from Packington and as a number of my grandmother’s family were born there I have the parish fiche so I did look for Joseph but I didn’t find a baptism for him at Packington, although the couple who I assume that could be his parents married there…. If you ever discover where he is christened I would be interested just to know where Packington folk went to get their children christened other than Packington.

Also…. Have you looked at the Nottinghamshire Guardian? If you have a library that subscribes to the Gale Newspaper site you can look online.
There are a number of Asher mentions such as for Samuel and his death in Australia.-1855.
1860 the death of Lyon Asher from jaundice.
1855 – sale of property; 1852 a Robbery of 15 silver watches belonging to Mrs Asher of Newcastle Street.
1852 the birth of Triplet sons of Mr & Mrs Asher of Newcasle St.
There are some other interesting snippets but unfortunately the paper only covers the years from 1849…..I wonder if there are any earlier newspapers which might give any other information….only problem with that is you would have to sit and read every inch of newsprint.

[greyingrey]

Thank you very much, dizzy....I'll get back to you if I find out where Joseph was baptised.

The stuff you found in The Guardian was very interesting....I knew about Samuel Lyon (transported to Australia)....apparently, he was part of a gang that went round stealing stuff from people's gardens when their backs were turned....he was eventually arrested in Nottingham Castle gardens for stealing someone's coat there. I didn't know what Lyon died of or about the gold watch robbery. Someone got in touch once & said they'd been told about a family member about the triplets but it was all very vague.

Thanks very much

[greyingrey]

Oh....what was the sale of property ?

Thanks

[jim1]

The triplets were;Abraham,Isaac & Jacob.
Abraham died & was buried 8/8/1852 & Isaac 31/10/1852

jim

[greyingrey]

Thanks very much, Jim.

Can I subscribe to a site where I can read the Nottingham Guardian from that time ? As I'm originally from Nottingham myself, I would find it very interesting

[greyingrey]

Sorry.....I'm being very slow. From what you've said, are we sure that there were 2 William Ashers in Arnold producing children at around the same time....& it isn't the same William having children by 2 different women?. We have a definite marriage between William & Clementine in Arnold, but I can't find a marriage between William & Elizabeth (OK, not that surprising, because, if they married in her parish, that could have been anywhere outside Nottinghamshire) If, as seems to be the case, Elizabeth Barefield was Lyon's Betsy, then it also seems to be the case that William named his son after her brother.....well, I guess stranger things have happened.....

[jim1]

Clementina Brown was born 1798 Derby dau. of John & Mary.
She appears in Derby in 1851 & 61 with sons John Asher b.1829 Arnold & William Asher b.1832 Arnold.
The only births in Arnold for these 2 are to William & Elizabeth.
There's no sign of Clementina before 1851 & no sign of Elizabeth after 1841.
There is 1 recorded (census) for William Asher this age b.Arnold & 1 John both sons of William & Clementina (W) ( 1851 & 61) & both sons of William & Elizabeth (1841)
OK.look at the births:
William & Elizabeth's
GTB/1815/St.Nicolas
Sam.Lyon/1818/do
These 2 when hawking in the town
Robert/1823/d.1825
William/1826/d.1826
John/1827
Elizabeth/1829
William/1832
All Arnold
********************
William & Clementina's
John/1821/d.1821 aged 3 weeks
Mary Ann/1822
both Arnold
You can see there's a large gap between Samuel 1818 & Robert 1823,enough to fit in these last 2 in 1821 & 22.
My view is that Elizabeth & Clementina are one in the same.Having 2 children GTB & Samuel L prior to marriage using the name Elizabeth,marrying as Clementina & using that name for her next 2 children & for whatever reason reverting back to Elizabeth for the others.On reaching widowhood & returning to Derby using her original name Clementina.
William appears to have died 1842 & Clementina 1870.
Phew!