Author Topic: John GILLMORE baptism Pancras  (Read 1906 times)

Offline mamor

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John GILLMORE baptism Pancras
« on: Monday 10 May 10 11:43 BST (UK) »
Hi,

I have been trying to make sense of my Nan's ancestors for nearly three years now, and am more confused than when I started!

I am trying to locate the birth or baptism of John Gillmore (sometimes spelled with one L). 

His year of birth varies from record to record -
1901 census has him b1846 Pancras;
1899 on his son's marriage certificate he is down as John Stephen Gillmore;
1891 census has him b1850 Pancras;
1890 marriage to Emily Byrch has him b1850 (his father is John Gillmore - Deceased Chef De Cuisine);
1881 census has him b1849 Middx (his name is down as James for some reason);
1771 marriage to Eliza Arnold says he was born 1848 (his father is John Gillmore - Cook) his full name is given here as John Stephen Gillmore;
1871 census says he was b1855 St James - I think this is an error. 

There are quite a few possible births on BMD, I ordered one and it was the wrong person - it is too expensive to order all of them!  perhaps someone out there has access to the baptism records for this parish?

My nan remembers being told that John's father also called John moved down to London from Scotland, but I can find no record of a Scottish John Gillmore living in London via the census returns.
She is quite sure of the Scottish connection.  I did find a John Gillmore who could have been his father (he was a cook living in London), but he was born in Reading.

I would really appreciate any help that anyone can offer  :)



FREEMANTLE - Hampshire  WILLIAMS - Gypsy/Romany family  GILES - Greenham  GILMORE - London  AMOR - Pewsey/Wilcot  DULIEU - London  BISHOP - Enborne  WILLIAMS - Kent BROWN - Kent/Peckham TIDMARSH

Offline jorose

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Re: John GILLMORE baptism Pancras
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 13 May 10 17:34 BST (UK) »
At his marriage in 1871 who are the witnesses/what is the address?
And how sure are you that you have the right one in 1871?

"Pancras" could cover several churches. If you're having trouble finding his birth it might be that his birth/baptism are not under Gillmore. Sometimes baptisms are several years after and not in the same place as a birth.

On the IGI there are some "Old Church" Pancras records with a father John Gillmore, I think of particular interest is:
Charles Godfrey Gillmore, b. 17 Nov 1854 chrs. 10 July 1860 (this man marries in 1879 in Pancras as "Gilmore", can't see a birth certificate), parents John Gillmore and Caroline.
Perhaps a younger brother?
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Offline Valda

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Re: John GILLMORE baptism Pancras
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 13 May 10 18:24 BST (UK) »
Hi

Charles Godfrey Gilmore aged 23 who married in 1879 to Jessie Eliza Martin gave his father as Joseph Gilmore deceased a carver and gilder on his marriage. His baptism was in 1860 from the workhouse with a birth given as 1854. No occupation on the baptism for the father.


The John or James Gillmore on the 1881 census was by occupation a painter

1881 census RG11 186 folio ?
62 Cleveland Street St Pancras
James Gillmore 32 Head Married Painter Middlesex
Eliza Gillmore 31 Wife Married Middlesex
John Gillmore 2 Son


Does the 1871 census entry you think you have for him tie in with his address on his marriage and his ocupation?

Marriages Sep 1871 
Arnold  Eliza Miriam    Strand  1b 806   
Gillmore  John Stephen     Strand  1b 806

In this the census entry you are thinking is him?

1871 census RG10 142 folio 6
St James Westminster, London
Coffee House
John Gillmore 16 Domestic Servant  St Pancras? (dittoed down), Middlesex
could just as easily be Gillman, birthplace indexed as St James


Regards

Valda
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Offline mamor

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Re: John GILLMORE baptism Pancras
« Reply #3 on: Friday 14 May 10 10:43 BST (UK) »
Many thanks for your replies Jorose and Valda. 

I'm not 100% sure that this is the correct marriage, their address on the 1871 marriage certificate was 18 Stanhope Street, they were married in St Clement Danes.  Witnesses were Henry and Eliza Allew (could be Allen).  James' father was John Gillmore - Cook.  John's occupation was Jeweller (later on he was a painter or decorator, no other mention of him being a jeweller).   

The reason I thought this marriage was correct, is because I know John definitely had a son called John with his first wife.  John and Eliza had a son called John which ties in, and on John's second marriage certificate (to Emily Byrch) his father was John Gillmore - Chef De Cuisine, which would fit with the cook thing (although he was deceased). 

I did follow the line of John Gillmore and Caroline Crippin that you refer to Jorose, but I traced them back to Marlborough rather than Scotland.  I still haven't discounted them - perhaps the story was wrong and it was someone a few generations back that actually came down from Scotland.  Either way, I would like to find more definite proof of this if possible.

The 1871 census entry I have for him is the same one you mention Valda - Eliza Arnold was also living at the same address - otherwise I would have said it wasn't him due to his year of birth being down as 1855. 

John died in 1926 in Bucklebury (Bradfield Dist.) aged 82, which puts his birth year at 1844.

On his marriage certificate in 1871 and on his son's marriage certificate in 1899, John's full name was John Stephen Gillmore.  However on all other documents I have he is just John Gillmore - as I said he is referred to as James Gillmore on one census return - very confusing!

I would love to solve the mystery of where and who this John came from, as my Nan doesn't know a great deal about her family.

Thanks again for your help, it's much appreciated.
FREEMANTLE - Hampshire  WILLIAMS - Gypsy/Romany family  GILES - Greenham  GILMORE - London  AMOR - Pewsey/Wilcot  DULIEU - London  BISHOP - Enborne  WILLIAMS - Kent BROWN - Kent/Peckham TIDMARSH

Offline mamor

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Re: John GILLMORE baptism Pancras
« Reply #4 on: Friday 14 May 10 10:45 BST (UK) »
Sorry, the first paragraph should have read "John's father was John Gillmore - Cook", not James!
FREEMANTLE - Hampshire  WILLIAMS - Gypsy/Romany family  GILES - Greenham  GILMORE - London  AMOR - Pewsey/Wilcot  DULIEU - London  BISHOP - Enborne  WILLIAMS - Kent BROWN - Kent/Peckham TIDMARSH

Offline Valda

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Re: John GILLMORE baptism Pancras
« Reply #5 on: Friday 14 May 10 13:27 BST (UK) »
Hi

A possible

1861 census RG9 128 folio 62
13 Charles Street  St James Westminster Middlesex
John Gilmore 15 Servant Waiter City of London

I think because this is proving so difficult you have to begin to consider wider possible options such as John was illegitimate. If that is the case then what he states on his marriages about his father could be inaccurate, or accurate except for the same surname.


Regards

Valda
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Offline mamor

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Re: John GILLMORE baptism Pancras
« Reply #6 on: Friday 14 May 10 15:03 BST (UK) »
Thanks Valda,

I think I need to find where the relevant Parish Records are held, and have a good search through, as I don't seem to be getting anywhere online!

FREEMANTLE - Hampshire  WILLIAMS - Gypsy/Romany family  GILES - Greenham  GILMORE - London  AMOR - Pewsey/Wilcot  DULIEU - London  BISHOP - Enborne  WILLIAMS - Kent BROWN - Kent/Peckham TIDMARSH

Offline jorose

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Re: John GILLMORE baptism Pancras
« Reply #7 on: Friday 14 May 10 16:00 BST (UK) »
Looking at the 1871 census of 18 Stanhope street, there seem to be a _lot_ of families living there (including a George Arnold - his wife's brother, maybe?).
It's possible he wasn't living in the parish in 1871 but they both gave the same address; this was to avoid having to call banns in two separate parishes and pay twice.

Also on Poland St in 1871 there was a Robert Gillmore, 39, a lodger, tailor, and unmarried man b. Whitehaven (well, at least heading in the correct direction for the Scottish border!)
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Offline mamor

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Re: John GILLMORE baptism Pancras
« Reply #8 on: Friday 14 May 10 16:17 BST (UK) »
Thanks for that Jorose, I will look into siblings of Eliza Arnold, could be a good lead!  I have just been looking at the signiture of John Gillmore on his two marriage certificates, the John's look quite similar, but the handwriting on the Gillmore part is different.  It may just be that his handwriting altered over the nineteen years between marriages! I'm determined to get to the bottom of this someday!
FREEMANTLE - Hampshire  WILLIAMS - Gypsy/Romany family  GILES - Greenham  GILMORE - London  AMOR - Pewsey/Wilcot  DULIEU - London  BISHOP - Enborne  WILLIAMS - Kent BROWN - Kent/Peckham TIDMARSH