Author Topic: James Ramsay, minister in Kelso  (Read 6702 times)

Offline Lord_Vader

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Re: James Ramsay, minister in Kelso
« Reply #9 on: Monday 12 April 21 09:18 BST (UK) »
Hello,

Re: Gilbert Ramsay and Katharine Karr.

This is a line I am following with interest as a distant cousin claims Gilbert's lineage as her father's YDNA line (matching my own YDNA).

I have researched back from a John Thomson Ramsay to Gilbert via some interesting people who served in India. Gilbert and Katharine's eldest son was Andrew Ramsay-Karr named for her father Andrew Karr of Kippilaw. He adopted the name 'Karr' upon inheriting his mothers lands, however the lands seemed to jump back to the Karrs, perhaps by some condition reverting back to a found male line heir. Andrew Ramsay-Kerr's will named several adult children. Andrew Ramsay-Karr was Governor of India, and of his sons and grandsons were merchants and soldiers.

The 1719 marriage transcript found at Scotland's People of Gilbert to Katharine notes Gilbert as being son of Alexander Ramsay of Belton where Alexander was found in several documents in the early 1700s on the NAS Catalogue as Factor to David, Lord Hay.

A book "History of Scottish Families' states Gilbert was a cousin of the Poet Allan Ramsay who claimed he was (this is openly debated) descended from the Dalhousie line.

REV JAMES RAMSAY, MINISTER OF KELSO
Of the lineage of Rev. James Ramsay, Minister of Kelso, his descendant William Norman Ramsay found in the Dictionary of National Biography 1885-1900 notes the family was of "Ramsays of Balmain in Kincardineshire":

- https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_1885-1900/Ramsay,_William_Norman

I cannot source who wrote this and is highly circumstantial, but it may have been what the family actually thought. It however cannot yet be proven as the line stops at Rev. James. We know he studied at St Andrews which is definitely closer to Balmain, but his parents remain unknown.

Further it is worth nothing that a branch of the Balmain family, a Sir James Ramsay of Benholme c.1620-1696, was in the purchase of Benholme in 1647 "brother german of Sir Gilbert Ramsay of Balmaine". Sir James married Lilias Seton and later settled at Logie. One of his sons Robert c. 1660-1734 became Rector and Provost of Saint Andrews College and Professor of Philosophy.

This maybe a connection worth investigating.


Offline Br1gau

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Re: James Ramsay, minister in Kelso
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 03 June 21 16:23 BST (UK) »
Hello,

Sorry but I didn't receive notification of your reply, probably because I haven't posted here in such a long time.  It was only by sheer chance that I came across it.

I spent time years ago looking for a connection between the Gilbert Ramsay family and Rev. James Ramsay but found none, apart from the Dukes of Roxburgh!  I'm sure you already have much information but just as a re-cap to refresh my own memory:

Gilbert Ramsay, solicitor and factor to Robert Kerr, 2nd Duke of Roxburghe died in 1743.  He was the eldest son of Alexander Ramsay, factor to Lord David Hay of Belton, East Lothian.  Gilbert, I believe was also responsible for overseeing the building of Floors Castle, designed by Adam. Lord David Hay was the son of John Hay, 1st Marquess of Tweedale and Lady Jane Scott.  He died in 1726.  His sister, Margaret Hay married Robert Ker, 3rd Earl of Roxburghe in 1675. She died in 1753 aged 96 at Broomlands near Kelso.

The NAS also hold the Antenuptial contract of marriage between Gilbert Ramsay, Factor to the Duke of Roxburgh and Katherine Ker, dau. of Andrew Kerr of Kippilaw. [Seton-Carr Family, of Kippielaw, Bowden, Roxburghshire, private collection, ref: NRAS2970/Bundle 19, restricted access]

As far as I remember Gilbert Ramsay and Katherine Ker had two sons and five/six daughters who became milliners and dressmakers to the wealthy ladies of Edinburgh.  Katherine in particular, together with her sister Ann made a fortune and built a house named Viewforth in Edinburgh. The locals made fun by referring to the building as Lappet Ha.  Somewhere I have an amusing anecdote where Katherine and Ann arrived at a prospective client’s house dressed to the nines in the latest Paris fashion insisting that this much more mature lady dress exactly like them.  She was not at all impressed, never calling on the Misses Ramsay again - made me think of Trinny and Susannah from the TV!  See page 192:
https://www.rootschat.com/links/index.php

Rev. James Ramsay, Minister in Kelso
I still have no idea who James Ramsay’s parents were, although I can say that his grandfather was also named James.  Presumably they were Berwickshire people.  His son, generally recorded as William Ramsay LL D of Templehall succeeded Gilbert Ramsay as Commissioner to Robert Kerr, 2nd Duke of Roxburgh in 1743, then after his death in 1755 to John Kerr, the 3rd Duke and renowned bibliophile.  I have not found a birth record for William either but his younger brother, John, born 1710 was baptised at Kelso as witnessed by Sir William Ker of Greenhead and Gilbert Ker, Baillie.  I am told they were brothers.

William Ramsay purchased Templehall, Coldingham about 1749.  I don’t know if it was by accident or design but the ancestral home of this particular Ramsay branch was also named Templehall in the parish of Monifieth.  The three eldest sons of William Ramsay and Ann Cumming; James, John Cumming and Alexander all died young leaving their fourth son Capt. David Ramsay RN with the family residue.  All his papers are lodged with the NRS - I have barely scratched the surface.  This is a transcription of one of them:

Letter addressed to Captain Ramsay, Royal Navy, Newhaven and dated 1 Sept. 1807, from N St Andrew's Street [in Edinburgh] 
"Mr Sandilands with best compliments takes the liberty of informing Captain Ramsay that the precept of Clare Constat granted by Lord Torpichen's tutors in favour of Captain Ramsay's Father as heir to his Great Grand Father James Ramsay designed sometime of Templehall in the Templelands of Lawis otherwise called Muireheads lying in the parish of Monifieth and Sheriffdom of Forfar is dated the 2nd of July 1773."  [NAS: GD274/24-8]

I understand that Sandilands was the family name of the Lords Torpichen, but it seems William Ramsay’s family did not hold on to these lands for long.  Another letter addressed to David Ramsay from Alexander Ramsay Irvine (of Balmain) dated 1792 acknowledges receipt of seven title deeds dated between 1505 and 1604 showing the line of succession.  The earliest charter was granted to Peter Ramsay of Ardownie.  Subsequent inheritors were all named either Henry or John. The deeds themselves were later incorporated into the Banff Charters published 1915.

So there we are - Kincardine Ramsays by the look of things.  Thank you again for your post, I had reached the point of not being able to see the woods for Ramsays! So many of them and such complicated relationships - more to do with land transfer than anything, I suspect.

Regards, brigau



Offline GR2

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Re: James Ramsay, minister in Kelso
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 03 June 21 17:23 BST (UK) »
I assume you have seen the entry for James in the Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae. It suggests he was probably of the Edington family.

Offline Br1gau

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Re: James Ramsay, minister in Kelso
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 03 June 21 19:32 BST (UK) »
Yes I have seen that entry but totally forgotten it, so thank you GR2 for reminding me.  I have read possibly and probably so many times it would be so good to find a definitely.  There is of course no reason that these Ramsays were not connected to more than one branch.  My primary interest was to find the parents of Rev. James Ramsay, and I am surprised that someone, otherwise so well documented appears to have been put on this earth without any. 

brigau


Offline Lord_Vader

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Re: James Ramsay, minister in Kelso
« Reply #13 on: Friday 04 June 21 12:34 BST (UK) »
Hi brigau, thank you for your info I hadn't come across the Rev. James' grandfathers name before.

If related to the Balmain branch it may be the only surviving as the main branch ended with the heiress marrying Sir Thomas Burnett, 6th Baronet of Leys.

The Burnett of Leys family is what sparked my interest as their line is the same YDNA haplogroup as myself and other Ramsays. The son of the aforesaid marriage Sir Alexander Burnett-Ramsay 1757-1810 is the 1st 'Burnett-Ramsay' Baronet of Balmain adopting his mother's surname. The Burnett YDNA project was thinking all Ramsay's of this haplogroup was descended from Alexander, however the genetic distance is exponentially further back in time well before surnames. My YDNA is from one one two key clusters of Ramsays in Scotland who both are related well within the time of surnames to a male descendant of Gilbert Ramsay and Katherine Kerr.

I was incorrect on the property of Kerr falling back to the Kerr family. The property went to Gilbert's eldest son David Ramsay-Kerr 1722-1794 who died without children. It passed to the second son Andrew Ramsay-Kerr 'Governor of Bombay' 1738-1799 and would have passed to his eldest son Richard Ramsay then grandson Andrew Sandison Ramsay, but both died and the property went to the next legitimate heir and grandson John Seton-Kerr via Gilbert's daughter Jean. Andrew also had two illegitimate children Mary Ramsay and David Charles Ramsay, both noted in his Will. It is via David this YDNA match originates.

It looks like you may have a more extensive knowledge on the information available, have you come across any further information on the Alexander Ramsay, factor to Lord Hay? The earliest I can find on NRS is:

"1689 May 27. Discharge by Margaret, Countess of Roxburghe to Alexander Ramsay, servitor to Mr. David Hay, Lieutenant Colonel to his Majesty's Troop of Guards in Scotland and formerly servant to deceased Robert, Earl of Roxburghe, her husband, of all sums of money belonging to said deceased Robert, Earl of Roxburghe, and intromitted with by said Alexander Ramsay."

I have found other entries showing Alexander was at a time working in London in 1697 possibly on behalf of Lord Hay and this looks to be where Gilbert was baptised in 1695 and likely David 1698 and Alexander 1697.

It would be interesting to test the theory of a relationship to Gilbert Ramsay to Poet Allan Ramsay with YDNA, but from what I have researched Allan's male line died out.

Offline Br1gau

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Re: James Ramsay, minister in Kelso
« Reply #14 on: Friday 04 June 21 16:29 BST (UK) »
"The son of the aforesaid marriage Sir Alexander Burnett-Ramsay 1757-1810 is the 1st 'Burnett-Ramsay' Baronet of Balmain adopting his mother's surname"

Yes, Alexander Ramsay Irvine died in 1806 without issue, so his sister, Catherine Ramsay's son, Alexander Burnett, an Advocate inherited everything. But he only lasted 4 more years?  If you don't already have it, the 1806 Will can be freely downloaded from the National Archives: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D342226

I have found a lot of Ramsay etc. files on an old hard drive and plan to put them in order over the weekend.  Maybe there are more puzzle pieces!  I have noticed a few newspaper advertisements for the Misses Ramsays in Edinburgh (they intrigue me.)  Also a photo of their memorial plaque at Kelso, kindly sent by another rootschat poster.  Also this ref:

Fillingham of Syerston
Reference   DD/FM
Covering dates   1587 - 1898
Held by   Nottinghamshire Archives

Extent   30 boxes
Conditions of access   Accessible to all holders of a readers ticket
Creators   Fillingham family of Syerston, Nottinghamshire
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=157-ddfm&cid=-1#-1
Eagle, Mary.  [no ref.]  1750
[no title]  DD/FM/55/1  will: 5 Feb. 1750. cod: 6 Feb. 1750. prob: 4 April 1751

Contents:
Probate will of Mary Eagle of St. James, Westminster, spin.
To be buried in Chelsea Church, and to be carried there in a plain hearse attended by one coach early in morning by daylight, accompanied only by nephew James Ramsay, of St. James, sadler.

To J.R. £20 in trust for nephew Alexander Ramsay of Belton, annuity of £8 to use of nephew Willby Ramsay, merchant, of Edinburgh, if he should become reduced in circumstances, otherwise to J.R.
To David Ramsay Karr, surgeon, of Kelso, Scotland, £100.
To John Ramsay, brother of D.R.K., of Baliol's College, Oxford, £10.
To Katherine Ramsay, milliner, of Edinburgh, sister to above, £10.
To J.R. all estate at East Thrope Leics., subject to incumbrances left on it when bequeathed to her by late sister Mrs. Farnsworth.
Residue to J.R., he exor.
Codicil: to maid Ann Smith £10 provided "she continues kind and tender to me".
Seal of Canterbury.


Offline Br1gau

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Re: James Ramsay, minister in Kelso
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 09 June 21 21:16 BST (UK) »
Hello again,

you ask if I had any more on Alexander Ramsay, factor to David Hay.  Only this one referring to Robert Ker, 3rd Earl of Roxburgh but there may be more in the registers. I haven’t double checked the dates but he looks to be the same, unexpectedly unemployed Alexander Ramsay:

Accounts relating to attempts to retrieve body of Earl of Roxburghe, drowned in the wreck of the Gloucester off Yarmouth, 8 May 1682

Note signed by Alexander Ramsay and John Grice detailing their attempts to recover the body: they hired a smack and five men and went out to the Lemain and Oar where the wreck occurred, and made the boat fast to the topmast of the `Gloucester' frigate and found it to be 17 fathom under water; `they tryed with divers Engines to draw up or discover any that had perished but their endeavours proved unsuccessful'. 17 May 1682.

[Innes Ker family, Dukes of Roxburgh Ref NRAS 1100/Bundle 635.  Repository Code: 800001, restricted access]

I have not found anything of much use in my old files, although a Will for John Ramsay of Edington dated 1643 did turn up. Thank you GR2 for reminding me of that possibility.  The trouble is I can't decipher a word of it; it's way beyond my capabilities.

With regard to the poet Allan Ramsay:  some biographers refer to him as a kinsman of William Ramsay of Templehall simply because of that much quoted letter of 1724 but it's such a loose term I have never set much store by it.  This biography gives a little of Allan Ramsay's background. The relevant section:

Allan Ramsay first saw the light on the 15th of October, 1686, at a place called Leadhill, in Lanarkshire. He was the son of one Robert Ramsay, who superintended the lead-mills of Crauford Moor for Lord Hopetown, and the grandson of Robert Ramsay, a writer in Edinburgh. Captain John Ramsay was his great grandfather, and it is from this worthy that he derived some portion of that gentle blood of which he was so prone to boast, the captain being related in some remote manner to the Earls of Dalhousie. Ramsay's mother was one Alice Bower, who claimed connection with the famous family of Douglas. Biography informs us, with a sort of triumph, that his grandmother was a Douglas, and moreover a Douglas of Muthill! This fact may not be interesting to English readers, but there can be little doubt that it was eminently so to our author, as well as to that numerous class of persons who imagine that a man of genius must necessarily have a pedigree, if you only search far enough and with sufficient zeal. "He was a poet sprung from a Douglas loin" are the poet's own words, and one can imagine the pride with which they were written.

Pride of ancestry is indeed a failing from which neither poets nor philosophers are exempt. They who are their own ancestors appear to take particular pleasure in depriving themselves of that crowning honour, and to accept of fame at second-hand rather than to acknowledge that they are descended from nobody! When Napoleon said that he was his own grandfather, he said what few great men have been bold enough to say before or since; and Ramsay must be pardoned if he shared what is after all a common weakness. Perhaps as there are Buccleuchs who look with peculiar pleasure on their relationship (real or supposed) with the author of the "Waverley Novels," so there may be Douglases of Muthill, and elsewhere, who may rejoice at the thought of being related to the author of the "Gentle Shepherd." At any rate there are Dalhousies who, if report speaks truly, find a particular charm in those lines of Ramsay in which he alludes to his paternal ancestry.
Dalhousie of an auld descent,
My chief, my steep, my ornament,
are words not likely to give offence to any member of the Dalhousie family.
http://spenserians.cath.vt.edu/BiographyRecord.php?action=GET&bioid=36596




Offline Lord_Vader

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Re: James Ramsay, minister in Kelso
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 10 June 21 12:15 BST (UK) »
Thank you for the reference.

I am still working out that last reference to somebody's potential aunt Mary Eagle. I suspect because her will was in 1750 that the Nephew "Alexander Ramsay of Belton" was a son or grandson of Alexander the Factor. Namely because Alexander the Factor would have to be born c. 1670 to be married c. 1695 and Mary Eagle is essentially the same generation. Also named in the Will is a sister Farnsworth which could be Utricia Eagle married to John Farnsworth in 1714, however her baptism is in 1682 doesn't quite fit easily with Alexander the Factor's mother needing to be born c. 1750  (although not impossible maybe if the father married twice). Yet Utricia Eagle's father was Gilbert so could have been Gilbert Ramsay's namesake.

The key will be the nephew Willoughby (Willby) Ramsay. All I can confirm was he left a Will in 1751 naming a nephew John Black. I have not yet found a baptism for Willoughby, but there was note of a clothing allowance in the 1730's suggesting he could have been young then.

The other Nephew James the Saddler is a bit of a mystery found as early as 1749 in London.

There is reference to a son John of Alexander the Factor so it could be this John as father of the next 'Alexander of Belton', Willboughby (Willby) and James the Saddler.

The one thing I noticed about the Poet Allan Ramsay was his profile seemed to be written by a fan who exaggerate some information. For instance his father wasn't Robert, but was John as is proven by a Will of John Ramsay of Leidhill 11 Aug 1685 citing Allan's mother Alice Bower his wife.


Offline Br1gau

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Re: James Ramsay, minister in Kelso
« Reply #17 on: Friday 11 June 21 17:08 BST (UK) »
Due to current restrictions the National Archives are offering free instant downloads of many of their deposits, mostly Wills. An absolute goldmine and much easier to search than A*. Have found a few interesting ones:

1751 Will of Mary Eagle, spinster of St James, Westminster
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D726957

James Ramsay, Saddler.  I think this may be him:

1786 Will of James Ramsay of St James, Westminster. Written in 1772
Wife un-named.  Daughter was Frances.  Executor was David Ramsay Kerr Esq., his nephew.   Additional Executor was James Ramsay in Edinburgh “the husband of my ?” (can’t read, possibly niece.) Sister was Mrs Skriven.  Also mentioned was Archibald Skriven, a Saddler.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D437820

James Ramsay, Edinburgh may refer to the husband of Gilbert Ramsay's daughter, Christian who was a Slater in Edinburgh.

Willoughby Ramsay – from F M P:
Record set: Scotland, Burgess & Guild Brethren Index
Date: 19 May 1731
Collection: Edinburgh Burgesses 1701-1760, Guild & Trade Associations
Additional information: merchant, Burgess and Guildbrother, as p. to John Speirs, merchant, Burgess and Guildbrother, Edinburgh.

Willoughby Ramsay, Merchant and James Ramsay, Saddler were brothers.  See:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qnx/

1728 David Hay of Belton (written 1718)
Wished to be buried in “my own burial place named Beltonisle in Dunbar Church.”
Wife was Lady Rachael Hayes.  Eldest Son was John Hay.  Ten further children viz. Four sons - David, William, James and Francis. Six daughters viz. Rachael, Jane, Elizabeth, Margaret, Diana Hungerford and Susannah.

Many other names and place names difficult to read but include Alexander Ramsay, Factor to John, Duke of Roxburgh, Alexander Hay, William Hay, James Hay of ?? in Kent, Mr John Blake Esq. in London, Robert Hay, Alexander Hay of Nunlands?, Advocate; John Hay of ? and Alexander Hay “my Factor”
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D631434

A general internet search shows David Hay to be the son of Alexander Hay, Lord Chancellor of Scotland (appointed 1692) and 1st Marquess of Tweedale (created 1694.) See also:
http://redbookofscotland.co.uk/hay-of-belton

Allan Ramsay biography - yes beware of what you read on the internet.