Author Topic: George AH HOY  (Read 13607 times)

Offline tropicalj

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Re: George AH HOY
« Reply #27 on: Saturday 10 March 12 22:09 GMT (UK) »
his wife was considerably  younger than  him,  have you got t ir marriage certificate as this  should detail where and when both  parties were born.

The online cemetery records  only show a few people buried there, it is a big cemetery.  You would have to contact the Charters Towers History group  for more information  and I do beleive they  charge for the servoce


Jenn
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Re: George AH HOY
« Reply #28 on: Sunday 11 March 12 04:01 GMT (UK) »
If he was 80 when he died in 1922,   and he actually was Chinese,   then it is unlikely that he was born in New South Wales ( in 1842 ).

I am concerned about   "unlikely that he was born in New South Wales (in 1842 ) "....   

There are various online websites that show that there were Chinese in NSW from the beginning of the Colony.   Afterall, several ships of the First Fleet sailed for Canton to obtain cargo there, rather than sailing directly back to England.  Trade between Canton and UK ports had been well established by the 1780s.    I think of the expression "shanghai'd" and its origins ...  ships' crew ...

I understand that Mr Bigge's report/s of 1821 addressed concerns about this.   

As I understand it, long before 1840s there were people either born in China or with Chinese parentage who were living in NSW.   

I also understand that BEFORE the Gold Rushes, that after the ceasation of transportation to NSW (effectively from after 1840) that much larger numbers of Chinese arrived as indentured labourers.  (Shepherds, irrigation experts etc).    I also understand that more than 3000 indented Chinese arrived from 1848 to 1852 to Sydney from Fujian (via Amoy in many cases).

Cheers,  JM

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Offline eregli_gene

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Re: George AH HOY
« Reply #29 on: Sunday 11 March 12 04:49 GMT (UK) »
Some of the ships of the First Fleet sailed to China,   to get cargo there,  to take back to England,  rather  than sail back empty,  as there was nothing to export from Sydney in 1788.

Chinese were present in NSW in minuscule numbers before 1848, however much the hard-core political correctness dweebies would like to posit otherwise.   There was an African and a Latvian on the first fleet too.  There was the very well known John Shying,  and three shepherds working for Macarthur,  and ...  undoubted some more but the records have been covered up, don't you know?

http://www.heritage.nsw.gov.au/docs/chinesehistory.pdf

My great-great gradfather Alfred Cluney was buried by an undertaker called Shying.

Furthermore,  a second-generation Chinese person born in Australia is not all that likely to have gone by the chinese-form honorific Ah Hoy  which as several people have pointed out,  is not actually a name.

A death certifcate assertion about place of birth is only a reliable as the knowledge of the person providing the information,  which is highly variable.

By 1855,   there were 100,000 Chinese in Australia,    compared to maybe 1000 ten years earlier ( and all invisible in any documentation ) .   In the absence of any other evidence,  a supposedly 80 year old man dying in 1922 is far more likely to be a member of the first category,   rather than the second.




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Re: George AH HOY
« Reply #30 on: Sunday 11 March 12 05:02 GMT (UK) »
Hi there eregli_gene,

I trust you are not considering that I am a hard-core political correctness dweebie.... 

I am not seeking to disagree with you, nor with your own research,  nor am I seeking to confuse "correct" statements with "politically correct" statements.   

You will kindly note that  in early Sept 2010 I posted on this thread and I offered a likely candidate with the surname HOY migrating from England, as well as a likely candidate from Canton seeking naturalisation.

As I understand it, there were far more than 1000 people in NSW with Chinese heritage in 1840. One of my forebears did a great deal of research during the 1920s-1950s.  I have those private papers, the figure varies from around 5000 to 12000.

Cheers,  JM


Some of the ships of the First Fleet sailed to China,   to get cargo there,  to take back to England,  rather  than sail back empty,  as there was nothing to export from Sydney in 1788.

Chinese were present in NSW in minuscule numbers before 1848, however much the hard-core political correctness dweebies would like to posit otherwise.   There was an African and a Latvian on the first fleet too.  There was the very well known John Shying,  and three shepherds working for Macarthur,  and ...  undoubted some more but the records have been covered up, don't you know?

http://www.heritage.nsw.gov.au/docs/chinesehistory.pdf

My great-great gradfather Alfred Cluney was buried by an undertaker called Shying.

Furthermore,  a second-generation Chinese person born in Australia is not all that likely to have gone by the chinese-form honorific Ah Hoy  which as several people have pointed out,  is not actually a name.

A death certifcate assertion about place of birth is only a reliable as the knowledge of the person providing the information,  which is highly variable.

By 1855,   there were 100,000 Chinese in Australia,    compared to maybe 1000 ten years earlier ( and all invisible in any documentation ) .   In the absence of any other evidence,  a supposedly 80 year old man dying in 1922 is far more likely to be a member of the first category,   rather than the second.




On line INDEX at NSW SR there is 20 Oct 1883 naturalisation for HOY Ah, native place of Canton, China.  There is a facility to order a copy of the full record.

http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx  I entered "Ah Hoy" in their keyword search. 

Also I noticed that in April 1855 on the ship Constitution there was a family with surname HOY migrating to Australia from UK.  Among that family were twin boys aged 12, one was named George (born 1842-3).  The passenger list is digitised and freely available online at http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/nrs-lists/nrs-5316  None in the family could read.  The family had been living in Cams, England before migrating, I haven't followed that up, but perhaps others may, to determine if that family and their forebears were Anglo Saxon.

Cheers,  JM

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Offline eregli_gene

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Re: George AH HOY
« Reply #31 on: Sunday 11 March 12 05:12 GMT (UK) »
Well I did notice that you raised the possibility that the folks from Cambridge were the ones being sought.  Yes indeed.     In 1855 ?  Are you suggesting that 12 year old George on that ship,   was a NSW-born person returning to NSW after a soujourn in England ?

And you did also mention the naturalisation of Ah Hoy,  native of Canton China, too.

It is certainly not beyond the bounds of possibility that he was born in NSW in 1842,  but, in my opinion,  statistically highly unlikely and certainly to be taken with a grain of salt.

If you really do have "private papers" about the substantial chinese population of NSW in the mid 1840's,  I suggest you publish them.   You'd earn yourself a PhD  and probably a gong from the Governor-General.

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Re: George AH HOY
« Reply #32 on: Sunday 11 March 12 05:23 GMT (UK) »
If you really do have "private papers" about the substantial chinese population of NSW in the mid 1840's,  I suggest you publish them.   You'd earn yourself a PhD  and probably a gong from the Governor-General.

Excuse me, but .... I have those private papers... they were bequeathed to me with conditions attached.  They will be lodged with The Mitchell Library in due course, in accordance with the express wishes of the person who carried out that research.... ie they will be lodged no earlier than April 2020, one hundred years after the research was commenced.   I am not into seeking a gong from anyone, nor was the original researcher.   A number those holding Uni qualification in NSW History are aware of the contents of those papers and have been given access to them, and have followed up with their own research, much of which has validated the info in those private papers.   

You need to consider that in the 1830s and 1840s NSW encompassed a much larger territory than today.   

Cheers,  JM
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Online sparrett

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Re: George AH HOY
« Reply #33 on: Sunday 11 March 12 05:54 GMT (UK) »
his wife was considerably  younger than  him,  have you got t ir marriage certificate as this  should detail where and when both  parties were born. JENN

You know Jenn, in my reply page 2 Reply #11, I proposed the same line of action and to date have not had any comment upon the idea!

Sue
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Offline eregli_gene

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Re: George AH HOY
« Reply #34 on: Sunday 11 March 12 06:07 GMT (UK) »
"You need to consider that in the 1830s and 1840s NSW encompassed a much larger territory than today.   "

Not sure what point you are trying to make here,  but well yeah,  but it didn't include China.

Are you suggesting that the Port Phillip District or the Moreton Bay District had a large population of Chinese in 1842 ?   They didn't have a large population of anything, in 1842.  Not even rabbits.

And I don't think many octogenarians dying in Queensland or Victoria in the 1920's,   who were born in those places in the 1840's,   would have put down "New South Wales" on the form, either.  

And if they were actually born in New South Wales,    they probably would have put "Parramatta NSW",  or "Maitland NSW",   or  "Bathurst NSW" on the form.

I suggest that rather than continue this rather pointless discussion,   we should help the OP find the record of marriage or children's birth which may shed more light on his birthplace.

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Re: George AH HOY
« Reply #35 on: Sunday 11 March 12 06:21 GMT (UK) »
Hi eregli_gene and others following this thread,


I suggest that rather than continue this rather pointless discussion,   we should help the OP find the record of marriage or children's birth which may shed more light on his birthplace.

eregli_gene,

 :) Have you followed up for the OP on the suggestions I offered back in 2010?
 :) Perhaps you could look for the family in say 1851 in Cams?
OR
 :) if you have easy and ready access to naturalisation papers you could follow that up,
OR
 :)  :) you could perhaps follow up both suggestions. 

Currently I am not able to.   

I agree with Sue re that marriage cert, which as it was for 1867 may well have some elusive blanks.  I do note that there was a baptism for a George F Hood 1847.  The ref no. at NSW BDM would be  Vol 35, line 3356.  The parents given names are indexes as George and Hannah.  I am fairly confident that Vol 35 contains C of E baptisms INCLUDING MANY for Bathurst, NSW.


If, as I suspect, there are blanks on that 1867 mc, then perhaps our OP could use some of the techniques I offered in the following thread

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html

Cheers,  JM, PS, I note that I did not commence the "conversation" to which you are   eregli_gene is referring.



On line INDEX at NSW SR there is 20 Oct 1883 naturalisation for HOY Ah, native place of Canton, China.  There is a facility to order a copy of the full record.

http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx  I entered "Ah Hoy" in their keyword search. 

Also I noticed that in April 1855 on the ship Constitution there was a family with surname HOY migrating to Australia from UK.  Among that family were twin boys aged 12, one was named George (born 1842-3).  The passenger list is digitised and freely available online at http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/nrs-lists/nrs-5316  None in the family could read.  The family had been living in Cams, England before migrating, I haven't followed that up, but perhaps others may, to determine if that family and their forebears were Anglo Saxon.

Cheers,  JM

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