Author Topic: Hey Behindthefrogs, my coat of arms there  (Read 13081 times)

Offline Pistolero

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Hey Behindthefrogs, my coat of arms there
« on: Saturday 09 October 10 22:03 BST (UK) »
Hello Behindthefrogs,
I am David Middleton Edelen II from Alabama, my dad being from Maryland and our ancestor Richard Edelen came from Middlesex, England in 1664. His fathr and grandfather and them lived at Hatchend, Pinner Marsh, Harrow on the Hill, Middlesex, England.

Anyway, I have seen his Coat of arms from several relatves and it is just like the one under your name. So, are you an Edelen? Although I have seen one where it was just like that but with some sort of cross over it, but I can't remember just how it lay over it. I have also seen a supposedly very old Coat of Arms for Edelen which consisted of a silver shield with red ankor cross on it.

From what I have read the name was orginally FitzEdelin, then changed to Edlyn/Edlin. My immigrant  ancestor Richard's grandmother, who was Prussian, wanted the name to sound and look more German so she changed her children's names to "Edelen". One of her sons was Phillip Edelen, some sort of big time preacher or something with a relief of him carved on a church wall somewhere over there. It was his son Richard which came to America in 1664 with a son and his wife, Elizabeth Banton, daughter of Lord Pannawell, whoever in the world that was. 

It intrigues me that you have the same Coat of Arms an Edelen cousin of mine sent me saying that was the one our ancestor had. My Uncle and I chose for our own the older one with the Silver Shield with the red anchor cross on it. A guy told me that one was awarded the bearer for his services in the 1st crusade.

Are you kin to the FitzEdlin, Edlyn, Edlins, Edelens? Here in America over time some of our branches have become mispelled and they spell our name Edlen, Edelin, etc.. Richard Edelen who came over from Middlesex signed his name on the ship's log or what ever it was as Edelen, so that is the correct spelling now, at least of our line. Look forward to hearing fropm you.
Dave
Alabama

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Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: Patrynomics
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 09 October 10 23:50 BST (UK) »
The coat of arms I use as my avatar are those of Henry Edlyn of Aldenham which appear on his tomb and various other documents.  They were adopted by the Edelen family who emigrated to Maryland but there is no proof that they were actually entitled to use them.  In fact even in the 17th century when Rev Samuel Edlyn, who was descended from Henry, tried to claim these arms with the Hampshire Herald there seems to have been some confusion which was not sorted out before he died. 

I know that when Cronian Edelen tried to register a right to them he was awarded a different coat of arms with differences which were derived from the arms of the Offley family.  This seems to indicate that the College of Arms were also unable to confirm the link.

The problem occurs because the Edelen line can be traced back to William Edlyn of Pinner who died in 1558, but no relationship has been shown as far as I know to Henry of Aldenham who died in 1595, whose children were born around 1560 and who seems to have been the son of Roger Edlyn.  There is further confusion caused by various pedigrees which wrongly show a descent of the Edelen line from Richard Edlin of Woodhall who was a founder of Harrow School.  He never married and died intestate.  The Woodhall branch goes back to 1520 and there is some weak evidence that they were related to branch from which the Edelen line eminates.  However I don't think an actual link has ever been established

Incidently my family no proven descent from any of these lines although our Edlins came from the Ruislip/Pinner area in the 18th century.

David
Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
DETAILS OF MY NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE
Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley.
Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse, Stevens, Batchelor
Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: Hey Behindthefrogs, my coat of arms there
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 10 October 10 10:41 BST (UK) »
Going back to my original comment on the original thread there is no real proof that the Edlyn line goes back to Wiliam FitzEdelin de Burgh.  The use of patronyms at that time makes it almost impossible to establish a pedigree unless other evidence is available.  It would be convenient to assume that his descendants who frequently were given the names Richard and William founded the Middlesex and leicestershire branches of the family.

A study of that coat of arms does offer a crumb of evidence that there could be a link to William FitzEdlin.
His coat of arms consisted mainly of a field of ermine with a fleur de lis as a canton.  The ermine field is also used in the Edlin arms.
William seems to have been descended from the Dukes of Bolougne through the family of William the Conqueror's mother.  The swans head used in the crest of the Edlin arms does indicate a very close link to the Bolougne line.  Similarly the fesse could be a reference to King William's mother Herleve de Falaise being the daughter of a tanner but this relationship is itself doubtful.

However this is only speculation and it could well be that the original arms were constructed from a vague understanding of the history which I am now trying to use them to prove.

David

Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
DETAILS OF MY NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE
Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley.
Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse, Stevens, Batchelor
Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: Hey Behindthefrogs, my coat of arms there
« Reply #3 on: Monday 11 October 10 09:27 BST (UK) »
The entitlement to a coats of arms is of course hereditary passed through the eldest son.  In the case of the Edelen line Richard who emigrated to Maryland had an elder brother Christopher to whom the arms would have passed.  I am however not sure whether he had any male offspring.

However their father Phillip certainly had an elder brother Richard whose descendants would have inherited any coat of arms.  Thus even if there had been a direct line to the Edelen branch the arms should not have passed to the family in the USA.

The College of Arms would not have looked back any further and this gives a logical explanation of how those granted to Cronian Edelen were derived.

David
Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
DETAILS OF MY NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE
Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley.
Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse, Stevens, Batchelor
Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Pistolero

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Re: Hey Behindthefrogs, my coat of arms there
« Reply #4 on: Monday 11 October 10 14:00 BST (UK) »
Hey Behindthefrogs,
No the site never notified me nor notified me of your last three replies, which I enjoy and appreciate. Again, it is a pleasure to correspond with the only English Edelen/Edlin I have ever met. I understand how the laws of heraldry work, and that the younger sons devised their own using elements of their fathers, mothers, etc.. Like I said, the coat of arms I saw thaty my great aunt researched and found was just like yours, but had a black straight cross centered in the upper field.

But I could not attach the pic I spoke of. The site said that there was already an attachment from me. But the one it spoke of was the first one I tried and at that time it said it was too big to attach. Email me at (*) and I will send the other Coat of Arms I mentioned.

Oh well, that one, the one with a plain silver shield and red anchor cross, was sent to us by one of the outfits you can "order" your coat arms from, etc.. It might not even be real, who knows. But a guy who claimed to know these things that I showed it to said the bearer of that arm was awarded it for his services in the 1st Crusade, that he was one of 900 mounted knights. How would he know that, and how did he know that there were only 900 mounted knights there? Does anyone know how many mounted knights were there?!? He went on to say that the old story "901 Arabian Knights" was actually about those 900 mounted knights in the army of Christendom. My uncle got a gold ring and had that coat of arms engraved on it. It is a beautiful ring and I like the coat of arms too. He adopted it as his own. How would one adapt a coat of arms legally, according to the laws of heraldry, or register it as you called it?

I thought that perhaps the reason the cross (it was a straight cross without the curled ends) was on the one my great aunt said was our immigrant ancestor's, which is just like yours other than the cross, was due to that earlier one with the anchor cross.  I sort of like it too.
Dave

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Offline Pistolero

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Re: Hey Behindthefrogs, my coat of arms there
« Reply #5 on: Monday 11 October 10 14:07 BST (UK) »
Hey David,
I read somewhere that eventually they changed the heraldric laws and granted all sons to carry their father's coat of arms because it had gotten too complicated with a myriad of guys with all sorts of designs on theri shields, etc.. That would make sense too. Because if all sons could carry theri father's, then from then on any descendent knew by that coat of arms who his descendent was, rather than a bunch of descendents with a myriad of designs due to the old laws.

I had a friend by the name of Smith who got tired of trying to figure out what Coat of Arms was for him, so he just got pen, pencil and paper and designed his own and got it registered somewhere.
Later,
Dave

Offline Stephen J F Plowman

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Re: Hey Behindthefrogs, my coat of arms there
« Reply #6 on: Monday 18 October 10 11:36 BST (UK) »
I read somewhere that eventually they changed the heraldric laws and granted all sons to carry their father's coat of arms because it had gotten too complicated with a myriad of guys with all sorts of designs on theri shields, etc.. That would make sense too. Because if all sons could carry theri father's, then from then on any descendent knew by that coat of arms who his descendent was, rather than a bunch of descendents with a myriad of designs due to the old laws.

In England the use of cadency marks tends to be "ignored" rather than the law being changed.  The second son of a second son would have a crescent upon a crescent and his second son.... ad infinitum.  In Scotland, however, the laws are quite strict.  The eldest son or designated heir will use their father's Arms as of right but any siblings will have to register/matriculate new Arms.  Whilst living under their father's roof they have the courtesy use of his Arms with an appropriate cadency mark.

Yours aye

Stephen
Plowman - Dorset
Gollop - Dorset
Taunton - Dorset
Carver - Norfolk
Oyns - all
Tweedy - all
Also British Heraldry (www.heraldry-online.org.uk)

Offline Stephen J F Plowman

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Re: Hey Behindthefrogs, my coat of arms there
« Reply #7 on: Monday 18 October 10 11:49 BST (UK) »
I had a friend by the name of Smith who got tired of trying to figure out what Coat of Arms was for him, so he just got pen, pencil and paper and designed his own and got it registered somewhere.

Residents of the USA are not subject to the laws of heraldry of other nations.  If US citizens cannot claim descent from an armigerous ancestor they are quite free to adopt Arms at will.  The main caveat is that it is considered bad manners to simply use or copy the Arms of someone else. 

Yours aye

Stephen
Plowman - Dorset
Gollop - Dorset
Taunton - Dorset
Carver - Norfolk
Oyns - all
Tweedy - all
Also British Heraldry (www.heraldry-online.org.uk)

Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: Hey Behindthefrogs, my coat of arms there
« Reply #8 on: Monday 18 October 10 12:38 BST (UK) »
However we need to remember that we are talking about the late 16th and early 17th century.  At that time cadency was fairly strictly observed in England, and Maryland where the Edelens first settled was a British Colony.

One of the main pieces of evidence of their use of the arms that we are discussing was that these were painted on the doors of a coach which I believe dated back to the 17th century.  Unfortunately it was destroyed by a fire in the first half of the 20th century and I am not aware of any photographs which would confirm its actual age.

David
Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
DETAILS OF MY NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE
Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley.
Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse, Stevens, Batchelor
Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk