Penygaer, Llanfihangel Glyn Myfyr

[bowiewhist]

Owing perhaps to lost 1861 census records I don't seem to be able to find details of who lived here at this time. Can anyone shed some light on ways to find out?

In a nutshell my great great grandfather Evan Hughes (1816 - 1895) worked the farm at Penygaer Bella and is thus recorded on all the other censuses from 41 through to 91. He married twice, both wives being called Eleanor (spelt variously as Ellen, Elinor, Ellinor, Ellin) and logically he would have been with wife number 2 in 1861 yet to have children.
He had Hugh, Catherine and Sinah as the first family and went on to have Jane, Ellen and a son who died as a child.
Eventually that Ellen married a Robert Jones and they took over the house/farm.

Any information on Evan and his family at Penygaer in the 20 years 1851 to 71 would be great - especially anything about the first three children and everyone's whereabouts in 1861.

Thanks

[Rol]

Hello Bowiewhist -- and welcome to the site.  As your enquiry has not been trampled underfoot by the number of responses in its first week  ,  let me see if I can help in some way.

Probably not at all when it comes to conjuring back the Llanfihangel GM census records for 1861,  I am afraid.  As you suspected,  they do seem to be lost -- both on the west (Denbighshire) bank of the Alwen where most of the village lay and on the east (Merionethshire) side,  i.e. the township of Cefnypost.  You may already have checked the specifics via TNA;  but if not this link should take you to their Catalogue Search page,  and then you just need to enter the piece number RG9/4309 into the ref. box at the top left -- which should pull up the sad tidings:

Parish: Llanfihangel-glynmyfyr Hamlet: Llanfihangel-glynmyfyr (MISSING) Hamlet: Cefnpost (MISSING) 1861

As you doubtless know from exploring the other censuses,  the Penygaer farms are on the Denbighshire side,  and well to the west in the township of Maesyrodyn.

Beyond seeking general confirmation that the 1861 seems to be lost,  was your objective to fill in some specific 1860s gap in your data whose existence is implied by your other sources?  I doubt that there exists any household census substitute for the locality between 1851 and 1871,  so one just has to reconcile oneself to the fact.  But perhaps you can expand on the details of the info you need that has not turned up in the other censuses,  wills,  PRs,  state BMD records,  the tithe apportionment schedule &c.  For example,  are there people who were around in 1851 who just seem to disappear thereafter without obvious explanation?


Rol

[bowiewhist]

Many thanks Rol for such a thoughtful and erudite answer. I can now be sanguine about the census return and, as you say, look elsewhere.

My main intrigue is the death of one wife and marriage to the next and what happened to the children from the first marriage - as without the 61 I'm missing some valuable clues as to their whereabouts. Sinah seems to disappear completely - can't find a death, marriage or 71 record.

I am going to Wrexham records office at the back end of next week so will have this and a set of Llangwm queries as my main targets.

Once again thank you for the information and for the welcome too as that was much appreciated.

Regards
Bow

[Peterej]

Hello

Just in case you have not discounted it there is a marriage in FreeBMD in Corwen 11b683 between a Sinah Hughes and either a Thomas Davies or a Thomas Jones.

I see also it is in NorthWales BMD CW28/1/72 with the wedding at Cerrigydruidion St Mary Magdalene which is very near Llanfihangel.

Peter

[Peterej]

Sorry forgot to say it is 1857 which is early and maybe you may not have checked.

Peter

[bowiewhist]

That sounds plausible Peter. I hadn't come across this one - I'll have a scout around a bit further. Many thanks indeed. I'll be calling at Cerrig and Llanfihangel as part of my Christmas pilgrimage so will dig further into those records. (Dad's ashes are at Cefn Nannau so we do a twice a year trip to the homeland!).

B

[bowiewhist]

Hello again Peter

I have tried to find the Sinah marriage that you have come up with but maybe I am looking in the wrong place. I've tried on Ancestry but no marriages come up at all. What am I doing wrong do you think?

I don't know North Wales BMD...

Bow

[Rol]

Bow,  this link should take you to the N Wales BMD site.  It is especially useful because it is based on the local (and so original) civil registers rather than the copy returns sent in to the GRO,  and it gives the parish or sub-district of the event,  allowing more reliable matching.

Peter,  on looking at that 1857 marriage in the name Sinah Hughes on NW BMD,  the site did not seem to offer me a matching groom called Thomas Davies -- instead I got a John Owen,  plus the Thomas Jones you found,  both shown as marrying some time that year at Cerrig church.  NW BMD seems to have two Thomas Davies marriages during 1857 in parishes that fell within the old Corwen RD,  one at Corwen church and one at Llangollen church -- and these are presumably the two that come up on FreeBMD in 1857 for that RD,  i.e. the one you found in Q2 and another in Q4 (the latter apparently the Corwen one).

Looking at the 1871 census for Hafod-y-maidd township at Cerrig I see that there is a John Owen in an ag lab's cottage there with a 35 year old wife called Sinah (both natives of Cerrig):  RG10/5680 fo.92r p.7.  As their eldest child was born 1858-59,  it looks rather likely that they are the right pairing for the 1857 marriage at Cerrig church -- so it was probably not the wedding of Bow's Sinah.  None of which is any positive help I am afraid . . .

I do see that in 1874 NW BMD offers another Sinah Hughes marriage,  at Llangwm church and with a David Jones as the only match.  But there is a fair chance that the census removes them as candidates too,  if they are the couple aged 31 and 27 in Voel township,  Cerrig,  in 1881 -- as seems quite likely:  see RG11/5539 fo.33r p.1.

Accordingly I am so far able to offer pretty little on Sinah's fate.  There must be the usual risk of mis-enumeration at the time,  or mis-transcription into the modern indexes.  I did try looking for all females stated to have been born "Denbighshire" + "Llanfihangel*" in 1840, ±1 year;  and if she was mis-enumerated as "Sarah",  there is a long-shot candidate in 1861 -- a Sarah Hughs,  unm., 21,  b. Denbighs. Llanfihangel,  who was working as a general servant for a draper in Whitford Street,  Holywell:  RG9/4269 fo.31 p.56.  But NW BMD is rather discouraging about the possibility of such an error,  because it shows two Sarah Hugheses as born 1840 in the right sub-district (Gwyddelwern) for Llanfihangel GM births . . .  Rather interestingly,  while Sinah Hughes shows up in the GRO birth index in Q3 1840 (Corwen RD),  NW BMD gave me no Sinah Hughes births anywhere at all from 1839 to 1842 (even on soundex).  Bit odd.


Rol

[bowiewhist]

I'm very cheered by you saying this is all a bit odd Rol as I have felt I have been eddying round for quite some time on Evan and his first family. A trouble shared etc.

This is a very thorough and detailed piece of research and am amazed at how much you have unearthed. I will have a look at the link you have sent a little later today.

Just for interest: As a consequence of my own research on what happened re Pengaer 1871. My great grandfather Robert Jones moved there on his marriage to Evan's daughter Ellen and then suffered a succession of sad events - losing his parents, then Evan, then in the same year his mother-in-law and wife, 1907 elder daughter Catherine to meningitis, 1915 younger daughter Jane in childbirth and then bringing up my father (also Robert Jones) - to be his only ever grandchild -  with just his sister for help.

Are you from this area Rol or just have an interest?

Bow