Author Topic: ITALY: Ignazio Mugnaio aka Matthew Miller  (Read 9884 times)

Offline liverpool annie

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ITALY: Ignazio Mugnaio aka Matthew Miller
« on: Monday 11 April 05 03:21 BST (UK) »
We need some fresh eyes -

Matthew Miller ( husband of Margaret Every ) b.1885 -  was the son of Matthew Miller born in Sicily about 1852 -  and it is believed by the family -  his name was Ignazio Mugnaio

1881 census says he was born in Palermo British Subject -  all later census say he was born in Liverpool!   

One of his greatgrand children went to Sicily last year -  to visit the State Archives in Palermo
A professional Sicilian Genealogist was engaged to search the city records - but nothing was found
LDS chuch yielded nothing -  after waiting 2 months for copies of births for periods 1850-1860
Kew yields nothing -  except stiff necks and sore backs!
many shipping lists etc -  yield nothing
copious letter writing  - yields nothing
so where can we go from here ? does anybody have any different ideas -
right now we're not seeing wood for trees -
we've walked away and tried to forget about it - but it keeps coming back....
there is much information after his arrival in Liverpool -  but nothing before
and the family just wants to know.....

Would really appreciate any suggestions or help
Thanking you in advance!
Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407030702/http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie

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Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I

Offline Valda

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Re: Ignazio Mugnaio aka Matthew Miller
« Reply #1 on: Monday 11 April 05 08:39 BST (UK) »
What information does the marriage certificate give re Matthew's father?
1875 Dec Liverpool 8b 383
Rose Cosh
Matthew Miller
Regards
Valda
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Offline liverpool annie

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Re: Ignazio Mugnaio aka Matthew Miller
« Reply #2 on: Monday 11 April 05 09:27 BST (UK) »


Father:  Jerome Miller
Which is probably anglicised too!
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Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I

Offline Valda

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Re: Ignazio Mugnaio aka Matthew Miller
« Reply #3 on: Monday 11 April 05 19:05 BST (UK) »
If he truly was a British subject born abroad then the overseas birth records as you know are kept at the Family History Centre at Clerkenwell (I think unindexed by FreeBMD) and there are also some kept with the National Archives at Kew RG32, - when you say Kew yielded nothing, do you mean both these places indexes yielded nothing?
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/bmd/step9a.htm
The Guildhall may have something as well, this website links there.
As Matthew was a seaman one of the ways he could have arrived into this country was joining the Royal Navy in Sicily (of course he could just have easily joined the merchant navy either English or Italian in which case there is very little hope of anything record wise in this country). Again Royal Navy seaman's records are in the National Archives at Kew. After leaving the navy many men transferred to merchant ships.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/military/navy/rnstep1.htm
If he was not a British subject but became a naturalised British subject (or a denizen) then there is further paperwork in the National Archives/
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/naturalisation/
but its unlikely because of the effort involved.
I think of these three sources the most fruitful may be Royal Naval records and even those are a long shot.
Regards
Valda.
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Offline liverpool annie

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Re: Ignazio Mugnaio aka Matthew Miller
« Reply #4 on: Monday 11 April 05 19:21 BST (UK) »
Hi Valda

Years -  and many, many hours have been spent going through the National Archives at Kew - both on line and in person !
the Navy, Merchant Navy, Naturalization, Deed polls, -  you name it we've been there -  but I am going to try the sites you gave me -  just in case I find something that wasn't there before.....
I really appreciate your help
Lots of family -  lots of man hours have been involved
Now it's just a case of -  WE HAVE TO DO IT !!!!! - as everybody is so frustrated.. We thought it worth a try for fresh eyes... !
Thanks again - if by any chance you think of anything else I'd be thrilled to hear it..

Annie
Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407030702/http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407191115/http://manchestersoldiers.webs.com

http://web.archive.org/web/20130807102055/http://www.powv.webs.com/
Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I

Offline Valda

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Re: Ignazio Mugnaio aka Matthew Miller
« Reply #5 on: Monday 11 April 05 20:21 BST (UK) »
Annie
have you tried a local newspaper in Palermo? They might print the story of your search with photograph of Matthew or at least a small insert. Of course you might get replies from people trying it on and you would have to get everything translated, but if anyone in the area has done any family research you might get lucky.
Have you tried the local Palermo telephone directory? How common is the surname?
This website gives links to Italian genealogy websites (I can't see Mugnaio amongst them)
http://www.anywho.com/cgi-bin/webdrill?catkey=gwd/Top/Regional/Europe/Italy/Society_and_Culture/Genealogy/Surnames
I'm sure you've been here before if you've spent all those hours at Kew but it was worth looking just in case it adds anything.
regards
Valda
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Offline liverpool annie

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Re: Ignazio Mugnaio aka Matthew Miller
« Reply #6 on: Monday 11 April 05 21:22 BST (UK) »
Hi Valda

It looks like we have plenty to keep us out of trouble for a while - Thank you!

The ancient family legend is that -  Mugnaio is the Scicilian word for Miller - but Ignazio doesn't translate to Matthew.........so who knows..!
Thanks again for your time -
but please keep us in mind -  if you get any other ideas !

Annie
Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407030702/http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407191115/http://manchestersoldiers.webs.com

http://web.archive.org/web/20130807102055/http://www.powv.webs.com/
Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I

Offline suanj

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Re: Ignazio Mugnaio aka Matthew Miller
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 12 May 05 12:25 BST (UK) »

We need some fresh eyes -

Matthew Miller ( husband of Margaret Every ) b.1885 -  was the son of Matthew Miller born in Sicily about 1852 -  and it is believed by the family -  his name was Ignazio Mugnaio

1881 census says he was born in Palermo British Subject -  all later census say he was born in Liverpool!   

One of his greatgrand children went to Sicily last year -  to visit the State Archives in Palermo
A professional Sicilian Genealogist was engaged to search the city records - but nothing was found
LDS chuch yielded nothing -  after waiting 2 months for copies of births for periods 1850-1860
Kew yields nothing -  except stiff necks and sore backs!
many shipping lists etc -  yield nothing
copious letter writing  - yields nothing
so where can we go from here ? does anybody have any different ideas -
right now we're not seeing wood for trees -
we've walked away and tried to forget about it - but it keeps coming back....
there is much information after his arrival in Liverpool -  but nothing before
and the family just wants to know.....

Would really appreciate any suggestions or help
Thanking you in advance!
Hi, excuse my bad english, I'm italian:..

-about Ignazio (this first name is tipically of Sicily) Mugnaio, as you say, but can be MUGNAI (why only this surname is present in Sicily and also no most diffused currently), well, about Ignazio is possible an search in Italian Archives for an search in Liste di Leva=militar service, IF your ancestor are emigrated almost  of age 23 old...
If yes, please ask an search in ARCHIVIO DI STATO DI PALERMO you can find it here http://wwwdb.archivi.beniculturali.it/UCBAWEB/indice.html
why are this sources: Ufficio di leva di Palermo, classi 1841 -1921 meaning for males born from 1842/1921 .. I cannot know if this records are of all commons in Palermo province or only for Palermo town...good luck.

regards, suanj

Offline liverpool annie

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Re: Ignazio Mugnaio aka Matthew Miller
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 12 May 05 15:26 BST (UK) »


Thank you so much suanj

I really appreciate your help
I've sent a copy of your message to my cousin -  as she can read Italian and I can't...!
but from what I can see -  that seems like a good resource - thank you again - I'll let you know what we find out...!

Best Wishes
Annie
Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407030702/http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407191115/http://manchestersoldiers.webs.com

http://web.archive.org/web/20130807102055/http://www.powv.webs.com/
Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I