Silvester Shaw/Thorp/Loveridge?

[nelwild]

Hello,

im trying to establish the identity of this lady,but the census entries are really confusing.
The 1851 says this:

Stephen Loveridge b1820 Toweden

Silvester THORP b 1822 Wicken,Essex.

then five children all with the surname Loveridge.

also there is a Councillette Thorp born 1798,Great Marden.Councillette also being a first name of one of Silvesters children.

clas HO107 piece 1786 folio 434 page 15

the 1861 has this:

Stephen Loveridge born 1809

Silvester SHAW born 1819 Wick.

then a total of 10 children,including some of the previous,all using surname Shaw.

also there is Dinah Shaw born 1781 mother.

clas RG9 piece 1121 folio 25 page 43

one of the children,Christiana born 1847,married Thomas Flack in Chelmsford using Shaw.

Another child,Councillette born 1845 was the partner of a horse dealer called James Pain.No marriage found.

From this,please can anyone tell me whether Silvester was Shaw or Thorp,and where Stephen Loveridge fits in.Shes down as unmarried on the census.

Thanks,

Nel.

[CitizenSmith]

Hi Nel

I think the answers you're looking for are in a letter written by Ambrose Thorpe to the Gypsiologist the Reverend George Hall in November 1910. The original is held in the Gypsy Collections at the University of Liverpool.

In this Ambrose gives an account of his family tree. He includes the following information:

- His father's grandfather was Fowlk Gray
- Fowlk had a large family that included Diney or Dinah Gray
- Dinah Gray married Great Jim Shaw
- They had four daughters: Suttey who married Stephen Loveridge and had a large family; Counselletty who married Jasper Shaw; Sinfie who married Jonas Shaw; and Achorn who married James Andrews

.................

Ambrose also said that he didn't know the name of Fowlk Gray's wife. But in a couple of baptisms I've seen for Fow(l)k's children, their mother's name is given as Mary. She may be a Thorpe.

So to tie all that together: in 1851 Silvester (Suttey) is using her maternal grandmother's surname Thorp/e (possibly also the name that her mother Dinah Gray – and her aunt Councillette – are sometimes known by).

In 1861, Silvester is using her father's surname of Shaw and Dinah is using her 'married' name: Shaw.

You'll note that in 1861, Stephen Loveridge is in a separate household on his own, with Silvester Shaw as head of her own household next door (so to speak) - which is why Dinah is rightfully listed as her mother, as opposed to his.

Incidentally, the Priscilla Welch/Welsh on the same census page in 1861 also has a Shaw connection: she is the partner of Tobias Shaw.

What Ambrose didn't know in 1910 was that Dinah and Jim Shaw had had another daughter called Cresana. She was baptised in Stotfold, Bedfordshire, on 4 October 1819: Stotfold being an important centre for these Shaws.

Cresana is where my interest in this family lies as she became the wife of one of my Drapers in 1838 but she died soon after marriage - which is why Ambrose probably had no knowledge of her. Perhaps the Christiana you mention, born 1847, is properly a 'Cresana'?

Ambrose Thorpe also has a Draper connection, of course: his wife was Leviathan Draper.

Hope that solves your puzzle.

Best wishes
Sharon

[An65]

Just to add to this, James Andrews and Acorn/Amelia/Aquila (Ive seen all three names used on census's) had several children at Hinxton Cambs.

[nelwild]

Hello Sharon and An65,

this looks like the the info i need to sort out what ive added to my tree so far.The overall impression im getting at the moment is of a family who used several family surnames at different times,and a variation of forenames.So it looks like theyll be difficult to research,which is often the case with the most intresting families.

I came across these Shaws whilst trawling the census looking for info on the stepmother of Mary Ann Streeting,the wife of my 4xgreat grandmothers cousin.Her name was Mary Ann Shaw born c1835.She married widowed Thomas Streeting(first wife Elizabeth Buckley),marine store dealer,on 15/01/1885 in Hawkhurst.She was a widowed hawker,father William Brown,general dealer.So im assuming she was a Brown who married a Shaw.Her birthplace given as:
1881 Birmingham,Staffordshire
1891 Birmingham,Hampshire
1901 Tonbridge,Kent.

She died in Kent County Lunatic Asylum,Maidstone in 1902.
 
Given the occupations etc,im thinking she might have been a traveller,but despite searching for a long time,i still dont know who she was or whether shes connected to these Shaws.

Ive got the Essex Shaws on my GenesReunited tree through Christiana Shaws son Divus Flacks marriage to Nancy Hedges,daughter of Job,the Hedges having married into the Arnold family ive been researching.

Im also very intrested in Councillette Shaws partner James Pain,my secretive great grandmother Emma Jane Pain being the one who set me off on this quest to uncover possible Romany roots in the first place.Her Father was rumoured  to be a James Pain born c1870,from "out of the area".James and Councillette had a son James born 1870.But that needs looking at much more closely and is for a seperate post,could just be clutching at straws again!

Many thanks for posting all this info,

all the best,

Nel.

[An65]

Certainly sounds like Roma folk you are looking for, Ive some Browns in my family, and the Arnolds were related to the Cunninghams & Swales.

[nelwild]

Thanks An65,

i havent found the link to the Cunninghams and Swales yet.Is it the Medway Arnolds theyre connected to?

Nel.

[An65]

Arnolds arent in my direct line - the only ones I know of came from Yorkshire

[nelwild]

The ones ive got descend from John Arnold born c1815 Sandwich,Kent and Mercy Huckstep born c1815 Chislet.No further back yet,

Nel.

[An65]

Just for you to cross ref to :

Richard Arnold b.cir 1817 New Malton Yks married 1841 New Malton to Hannah Cunningham d/o Richard Cunningham & Mary Miller (she was d/o Joseph Miller & Magdalene Wilson).

Richard Arnold was s/o Ann Busfield and the Busfield family also married into the Yorks Cunninghams/Swales family.

Richard & Hannah Arnold had quite a few children whos births were recorded at Mkt Weighton Yks.

Joseph, Jane, Richard, Hannah, Ann, Mary, Grace, Susannah, Lucy and Emily.