Author Topic: Orgill LEMAN of Brampton Hall  (Read 18771 times)

Offline osmposm

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Re: Orgill LEMAN of Brampton Hall
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 12 November 11 22:21 GMT (UK) »
Sooner than you think.....here you go, Richard.

The portraits are by George Sayer (1809-1887), a C19th artist of whom very little is known (and most of that wrong!). He came from Beccles, just up the road from Brampton, and was the youngest son of a local house painter. It seems likely that his 1834 portraits of the well-connected Lemans enabled a move to London. He was a prize-winning student at the Royal Academy schools by 1835, and began exhibiting portraits in London the same year. Like many other very competent Victorian portraitists, however, he faded into obscurity as the new technology of photography took off. Although he still described himself as a portrait painter in 1871, he had stopped exhibiting by 1850, and all his known works seem to date from the 1830s-early 50s.

The portraits were probably painted in celebration of the couple's golden wedding in December 1833 - that of Henrietta shows her proudly displaying her wedding ring. However, there is a small, sad detail: the ring is black-centered, in mourning for their daughter Harriet who had died earlier that year. Indeed, Henrietta's wonderfully detailed aubergine-coloured dress is most probably what was called "half-mourning", generally worn after six months in "full" mourning.


Offline Richard.44

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Re: Orgill LEMAN of Brampton Hall
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 12 November 11 23:52 GMT (UK) »
What a surprise and how wonderful to see the portraits - and the people - after all these years!   Thank you so much, Ossie.

Richard

Offline smudwhisk

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Re: Orgill LEMAN of Brampton Hall
« Reply #11 on: Sunday 13 November 11 00:40 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Ossie, the portraits are wonderful.

Robert Orgill Leman and Isabella Twysden had four children, as well as Robert Naunton Twysden Leman, they had Frances Henrietta Flora Elizabeth (on the census as Fanny) born 1828 in Brenchley, Kent, Twysden George born 1833 died 1834, and John Thomas Leman born 1836 Brenchley, died Apr Qtr 1857 Elham Registration District.  John Thomas is with his father and brother on the 1851 census, while Fanny was with relatives on the 1851 and 1861 census, she is with Robert Naunton and his wife on the 1871 census.   She died in Lincolnshire in 1896.  I have not come across any children to Thomas and Ann Gee nee Leman, if they had any it looks like they died young as they do not appear on any census with them.  So far the only child I have found for George and Charlotte Barlee nee Leman who married apparently in 1821 is a son Naunton Dalling Barlee who was born in 1829 and died in 1838.

Nicola
(KENT) Lingwell, Rayment (BUCKS) Read, Hutchins (SRY) Costin, Westbrook (DOR) Gibbs, Goreing (DUR) Green (ESX) Rudland, Malden, Rouse, Boosey (FIFE) Foulis, Russell (NFK) Johnson, Farthing, Purdy, Barsham (GLOS) Collett, Morris, Freebury, May, Kirkman (HERTS) Winchester, Linford (NORTHANTS) Bird, Brimley, Chater, Wilford, Read, Chapman, Jeys, Marston, Lumley (WILTS) Arden, Whatley, Batson, Gleed, Greenhill (SOM) Coombs, Watkins (RUT) Stafford (BERKS) Sansom, Angel, Young, Stratton, Weeks, Day

Offline osmposm

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Re: Orgill LEMAN of Brampton Hall
« Reply #12 on: Sunday 13 November 11 01:08 GMT (UK) »
Thanks so much for that, Nicola, hugely helpful. Unless Anderson TJ Leman had a family in Australia (and I scarcely know how to begin looking), it looks like the Shuldhams & perhaps the elusive Souths may be the only descendants still around.

Re the connection with Sir John Leman: I'm sure you all know this, but Burke's Landed Gentry (1900 edn) says that the Rev Naunton Thomas Orgill-Leman's mother, Susan Leman, was the 3rd daughter of Thomas Leman of Brampton Hall (which Naunton Thos rebuilt c1796). This Thomas Leman they give as the grandson of Thomas Leman of Brampton, the nephew of Sir John Leman. Naunton Thomas assumed the additional surname of Leman in 1807 "on succeeding to a property left by Mrs Mary Leman of Bury St Edmunds".

The DNB ( http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/16420 ) says it was Sir John who bought the estate of Brampton in 1605. The descent Burke's gives from "Thomas Leman of Brampton, the nephew of Sir John Leman" doesn't tie in with what is shown at British History Online, however. Sir John's heirs are there said to have been two of his elder brother, William's four sons -  a younger one, William, who inherited the estate of Warboys, Hunts; and the eldest, John, who would have been his main heir, but dying before his uncle John, the property was inherited by his son, also William. The other two nephews are given as Robert and Philip - no mention of a Thomas. See http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=42491 . I suppose Sir John may have had another brother with a son called Thomas to whom he left Brampton, but it's unusual at this time to be spreading your property around quite so widely.

There clearly was a descent from one of Sir John's heirs, as apart from Brampton itself, in 1847 Naunton's eldest son, George, was in possession of a portrait of Sir John, together with his signet ring and desk seal. These are now part of the V&A's collection - see http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O156800/painting-sir-john-leman/ , http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O156802/seal/ and http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O156801/signet-ring/

Ossie
(Osmund Bullock - Putney, London)


Offline osmposm

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Re: Orgill LEMAN of Brampton Hall
« Reply #13 on: Sunday 13 November 11 01:31 GMT (UK) »
Now that's interesting - slightly to my surprise, as I don't have a subscription, I managed to access the DNB biog of Sir John Leman via a link in his Wiki article. Now, however, it won't let me - either direct or via Wiki.

I did, however, save it while I was there. I don't think I should copy it here for obvious reasons, but if anyone wants to know what it says, send me a PM.

PS  Nicola, I've just realised it was you who wondered a month or so ago if I could look for any Zebedee baptisms at St Giles in the Fields. I didn't make it to the LMA before the stocktaking closure, alas, but when I get a chance I will go, and I will see what I can find. Let me know what the the burial is that you're interested in, too - Zebedee again?

Offline smudwhisk

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Re: Orgill LEMAN of Brampton Hall
« Reply #14 on: Sunday 13 November 11 02:26 GMT (UK) »
Re the connection with Sir John Leman: I'm sure you all know this, but Burke's Landed Gentry (1900 edn) says that the Rev Naunton Thomas Orgill-Leman's mother, Susan Leman, was the 3rd daughter of Thomas Leman of Brampton Hall (which Naunton Thos rebuilt c1796). This Thomas Leman they give as the grandson of Thomas Leman of Brampton, the nephew of Sir John Leman. Naunton Thomas assumed the additional surname of Leman in 1807 "on succeeding to a property left by Mrs Mary Leman of Bury St Edmunds".

Not sure Burke's Peerage is correct about Susan Leman's father, I have her as the daughter of William Leman and his wife Sarah Leman (whose father I think was a Thomas) baptised at Brampton in 1734.† She had a younger brother William Naunton Leman who died as an infant in 1738 at Beccles.† Her paternal great grandmother was Theophilla Naunton whose mother was Mary Coke a descendant of Sir Edward Coke, the Lord Chief Justice who fell out with James I and ended up in the Tower of London (Sir Edward was the nephew of one of my ancestors hence the interest in that line).† I know I found the published sources confusing at the time but I'm pretty sure that's correct and Burkes isn't.† The names Naunton and Theophila do follow that line through.

Ossie if you could have a look at St Giles in the Fields for Zebedee that would be wonderful, they are few and far between in the immediate London area and all I know is from the non-conformist birth registrations for my ancestor and his siblings that there grandfather was a John Zebedee.† Add to that the fact a John Zebedee of St Giles, a shoemaker, married at the Fleet and the fact my ancestor was one (although his father I think was a smith) and I'm clutching at a few straws but that's often the best way.† The burial I am after is actually for a William Archer about 1784/5 as his wife and two children were removed from that parish back to Devizes and, as I can't find a burial on ancestry for St Marylebone where they also were, I suspect it may be in St Giles in the Fields.† No rush, unfortunately health issues stop me from getting down to London at present, along with another dose of unemployment so it shall otherwise have to sit on the back burner for a while.
(KENT) Lingwell, Rayment (BUCKS) Read, Hutchins (SRY) Costin, Westbrook (DOR) Gibbs, Goreing (DUR) Green (ESX) Rudland, Malden, Rouse, Boosey (FIFE) Foulis, Russell (NFK) Johnson, Farthing, Purdy, Barsham (GLOS) Collett, Morris, Freebury, May, Kirkman (HERTS) Winchester, Linford (NORTHANTS) Bird, Brimley, Chater, Wilford, Read, Chapman, Jeys, Marston, Lumley (WILTS) Arden, Whatley, Batson, Gleed, Greenhill (SOM) Coombs, Watkins (RUT) Stafford (BERKS) Sansom, Angel, Young, Stratton, Weeks, Day

Offline Richard.44

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Re: Orgill LEMAN of Brampton Hall
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 13 November 11 22:38 GMT (UK) »
I have found further detail on the Leman family in the National Archives (no doubt known to most of you).  Title Deeds and Estate Papers of the Nyn Park Estate, Northaw, Hertfordshire, 1576-1923:

Amongst several papers of the family were:
Marriage Settlement (Lease and Release)  DE/X22/28976-7  16th May 1683

Seals - Poor or gone

Contents:
1 Sir Wm Leman of Northaw, bart, Dame Mary his wife & Mansell their son.
2. Lucy daughter of Rd Alie of St Dunstan in the East, Esq. 3. Sir Ed Mansell of Margham, Glamorgan, Rd Alie & John Mansell of Northaw, gents, Ed Watts of London, merchant, Peter Joy of London, merchant, Charles Knipe of Lt Chelsey, Kensington, Mddx, gent & Sir Thos Davall of London, knight.
(£6,000 portion.)
Manor of Warboys, Hunts (described.)
Manor of Northaw, Manor of Rampton, Cambs (described)
Witnesses - Hy Alie.
Fan Leman ?
Ed Leman.
Alice Jenings.
Susanna Alie.
John Owen.
Sam Wyseman

Copy Will  DE/X22/28978  17th November, 1692

Contents:
Of Sir William Leman, bart. Buried in family vault, £10 to the poor, coach, horses & silver to wife absolutely, furniture for life, then to heir male inheriting Northaw. Daughters Rebecca & Sarah £2,000. £100 to all the children of daughter Theodotia (Mrs Lewis Newncham.) Brothers John, of Northaw, Edward citizen of London, Tanfield, of Inner Temple, trustees of Manor of Barnes called Goodmans Fields in St Botolph Without, Whitechapel & Stepney to pay debts & legacies and subject thereto to William son of his eldest son Mansell (deceased) in tail male. Wife sole executor.
Proved 8th September 1701

Deed to Bar Entail  DE/X22/28979-80  31st March, 1708

Contents:
Sir Wm Leman of Northaw (the grandson) & Fine.
Property, etc. Settled Estates

Copy Will  DE/X22/28981  1st November, 1712

Contents:
Of Sir William Leman, bart, burial & legacy to poor as in grandfathers will. On grandmother Dame Mary's death Northaw devolves on his mother Lucy & the manor of Wardeboyse (Worboys) Hunts passes from Lucy to him now devised to her for life & the Manor of Rampton & lands in Cottenham & Wellingham, Cambs. Northaw to cousin Richard Alie of Mincing Lane, with Warboys & Rampton, in tail male, remainder to successor of the Leman family. £3,000 charged for Lucy Alie, his sister. Alie to take the name of Leman. Warboys charged with £100 pa to cousin Hickford-Leman & £40 to his cousins brother Robert Leman. £100 for a ring to Brian Fairfax Esq of Westminster. Cousin Robert to have the living of Warboys. Rd Lockwood, Esq, £20 for a ring. Residue to mother as sole executrix.
Proved 2nd. April 1742 (Lucy Leman & Dame Anna Margaretta Leman deceaseds widow having renounced) by Richard Alie


Hope this adds to the picture!    Richard Oakman

Offline smudwhisk

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Re: Orgill LEMAN of Brampton Hall
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 17 November 11 00:59 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Richard, interesting.

Going through Harwich for the umpteenth time looking for something else (although first time online) and found the marriage of William Leman gent (son of William Leman and Elizabeth Sterling) and Sarah Leman gent (daughter of Thomas) marrying 9 Oct 1727.† Makes you wonder why they married there as both were from Suffolk???

Nicola
(KENT) Lingwell, Rayment (BUCKS) Read, Hutchins (SRY) Costin, Westbrook (DOR) Gibbs, Goreing (DUR) Green (ESX) Rudland, Malden, Rouse, Boosey (FIFE) Foulis, Russell (NFK) Johnson, Farthing, Purdy, Barsham (GLOS) Collett, Morris, Freebury, May, Kirkman (HERTS) Winchester, Linford (NORTHANTS) Bird, Brimley, Chater, Wilford, Read, Chapman, Jeys, Marston, Lumley (WILTS) Arden, Whatley, Batson, Gleed, Greenhill (SOM) Coombs, Watkins (RUT) Stafford (BERKS) Sansom, Angel, Young, Stratton, Weeks, Day

Offline osmposm

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Re: Orgill LEMAN of Brampton Hall
« Reply #17 on: Friday 18 November 11 02:53 GMT (UK) »
Not sure Burke's Peerage is correct about Susan Leman's father, I have her as the daughter of William Leman and his wife Sarah Leman (whose father I think was a Thomas) baptised at Brampton in 1734. ...† I know I found the published sources confusing at the time but I'm pretty sure that's correct and Burkes isn't. ...

Sorry, Nicola, it was me that was wrong, not Burke's - I miscopied what it said in BLG. The actual quote is, "Lineage- THE REV. NAUNTON THOMAS ORGILL, of Brampton Hall, b. 11 Dec 1759 (son of William Orgill, of Beccles, and SUSAN LEMAN his wife, 3rd dau. and co-heir of William Leman, by Sarah his wife, dau. of Thomas Leman, of Brampton Hall, grandson of Thomas Leman, of Brampton, nephew of SIR JOHN LEMAN (see BURKE'S Extinct Baronetage)....". The Leman Baronetcy was not, of course, held by Sir John himself - it was granted in 1665 to his nephew William....or great nephew William according to some sources, though I think thatís wrong.

Here are two versions, Burkeís Extinct & Dormant Baronetcies 1838:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/0h8n/
 

And Cockayneís Complete Baronetage 1904:

http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924092524408#page/n7/mode/2up (see pp7-9)

Cockayne is normally as reliable as it gets Ė he was very thorough Ė but heís only interested in the main line of descent for the title. Burke gives more collateral detail, some of which is useful and probably right - including another nephew of Sir John called Thomas - but I think heís wrong about who the 1st Baronet was. This may well have been corrected in later editions Ė Cockayne had an extra 60 years to get to the bottom of it.

Iíll certainly have a look for your St Giles in the Fields entries when I finally make it to the LMA, though Iím not at all sure when thatíll be.