Helena Friese-Greene

[Valda]

Hi

1881 census RG11 2488 folio 44
4 Beech Road Horfield Gloucestershire
James Green 64 Head Married Smith Bristol
William Green 25 Son Married Photographic Artist Bristol
E. Green 64 Wife Married Clutton Somerset

No sign of Ethel and her mother who might be buried with her sister Clara

Deaths Dec 1895   Friese  Clara  47  Fulham  1a 180


Regards

Valda

[Romantic Spirit]

I must thank Valda a lot for all this diligent and kind effort!

Firstly, William Friese-Greene was definitely using his wife's maiden name for professional purposes soon after they married in 1874.  And I have two photos dated 1880 of his family with the address of the studios at Bath and Friese-Greene clearly printed on them.

Secondly, William Friese-Greene was a dreamer and such people are fanciful. One does not give a nickname such as Lena for official records and her age at that time was 40 not 37. I cannot definitely comment about Switzerland except that Friese is a German name and from the region bordering the Netherlands. Since nationality was not going to be checked these could be embellishments too.  All the other information is most interesting and presumably correct!

[Valda]

Hi


It is common for people when filling in the census household schedule to put down the name which each person was commonly known by - hence in this case Lena.

Switzerland is a long way from the German- Danish border so this would be a bit different from an 'embellishment'. There would be no problem in the 1890s in putting Germany (by then unified) if the three sisters were German born. Why put Switzerland if this was not the truth?

On the case of the German side though Clara's death was noted in The Times

17th October 1895
Friese On the 15th inst at 3 Lovaine Terrace Fulham S.W. after a long illness Clara Friese second daughter of the late Alexander Friese, of Berlin and Sils, Engadine, Switzerland Please copy

Still the mention of Switzerland though.


Regards

Valda

[Romantic Spirit]

You have discovered many interesting pieces of information.  Perhaps one should call you Valda The Magician!

A census form is supposed to contain accurate information of a household not made up nicknames which could be anyone. I have looked at countless records of numerous families and have never come across anything other than the correct names and ages except when the person taking the census information had made a genuine error such as a spelling mistake!

From the information about nationality I would think it most likely they were well-off Germans who had lived in Switzerland. I have lived in other countries myself but my name tells my true nationality. Bristol at that time had a large number of Germans, mostly business people, whereas it would have been rare to find a Swiss person. The local photographer and historian I mentioned was the late Reece Winstone, you probably are acquainted with, and he stated she was German too. If a person is going to give an incorrect age and name then they would likely think Switzerland sounds more romantic than Germany!

[JenB]

A census form is supposed to contain accurate information of a household not made up nicknames which could be anyone. I have looked at countless records of numerous families and have never come across anything other than the correct names and ages except when the person taking the census information had made a genuine error such as a spelling mistake!

I have to disagree with you here, and I'm sure I won't be the only one to do so!

I too have looked at 'countless' census census records, and have frequently found 'nicknames' or 'pet names' being used, e.g. Annie for Hannah, Ellie for Eleanor and many others.

I have found different ages given, and places of birth also differing from census to census, in some cases even to the extent of different counties of birth being given.

Jennifer

[Romantic Spirit]

Well, thank you, JenB. You are agreeing with me that the information on the census about Helena Friese is suspect.  From independent sources she was almost assuredly German by origin.

As for your experience differing to mine, you obviously have done much more research than me. All I can say is that all the families I researched were honest.

Thank you all very very much for the wealth of data! I have learnt a great deal!

[JenB]

All I can say is that all the families I researched were honest.

I have no reason to think that the families I have researched were dishonest. It is fairly commonplace to find that people gave differing information in sucessive censuses.

[Romantic Spirit]

How can a person's name and age change from one census to another in relation to their date of birth and without a lawful change of name without dishonesty?

[jorose]

It is not illegal to change your name, as long as it is not done to defraud. If he wanted to use "Friese Greene", he could (he may have only used it for business initially hence giving just plain "Green" on censuses). If someone preferred to be called Annie rather than Ann, or use their middle name, or take the surname of their stepfather, they could. Most people didn't bother with things like deed polls.

Although some ages changed because people were trying to disguise things like a big gap in age between husband and wife, there are lots of reasons why somebody might be mistaken, particularly for more distant relatives (in-laws, etc) in the household. That's why ages and birthplaces for lodgers and boarders are more often wrong, generally speaking, then those for family members in the census.

A birthplace might also be wrong because someone wrongly assumed they were born in the location where they lived as a child, or because it was easier to give the name of a large town near their actual birthplace.


Following the Josty connection:
http://www.badrutt.org/PiBa-GR-BK2006-e.htm
http://www.badrutt.org/PiBa-GR-020-e.htm
Daniel Josty and his brother were photographers in the Engadine area, but their family also had a connection to Berlin.  If the information about Daniel being her step-brother is correct, "Ida Josty" may be Helena's mother.

This may all refer to the same family:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caf%C3%A9_Josty
http://www.luise-berlin.de/strassen/bez01h/j134.htm (in German)

adressbuch.zlb.de could help find where the family were living in Berlin.