Ferns, Salford

[Joanne Welch]

Does anyone know anything of Mary Ferns, coming from Ireland, born in the 1830s, living with Alfred Brownbill in Salford in the 1860s, mother to Alfred Brownbill Ferns 1865 and Lena Ferns 1884? I'd love to know where she came from and if possible, her parents.

Thanks so much for reading this.

[CaroleW]

By 1884 - she would be a bit old to be Lena's mother

1861 census shows her in lodgings in Manchester aged 30

1881 shows her as 50 and Alfred seems to be the only child

There is no obvious marriage

[Joanne Welch]

I agree. What I think is her death cert gives her age as younger (1836 birth year), so I take the 1831 with a pinch of salt, particularly as the 1871 census has Mary and Alfred Brownbell living with their son Alfred in Manchester. Admittedly Alfred is 10 when he should have been 6, but there was a lot of misunderstanding about rounding up ages I've been told. If it is them, her birth year is given as 1841, and she's said to be from Manchester - which implies she's been in Manchester for some while.

I know it's unlikely to be them, but having bought young Alfred's wedding cert, on which he said his name was Alfred Edward Ferns, and so was his dad's, I take anything they say with a pinch of salt.

Also the 1861 census answers would probably have been supplied by the landlady - and all her boarders are 30, apart from the children. I think she is probably rounding up.

If Lena existed - and I'm not too sure, seeing her nowhere else - then I reckon, like you, that Mary must have been younger than the censuses state.

Jo


 

[CaroleW]

1891 census shows them all surname Brownbill

Mary  widow  60 b 1831 Ireland (Alfred died 1884)

Son Alfred 30 unmarried b Salford
Lena aged 7 is shown as daughter also b Salford

Impossible for her to be Mary's daughter - so possibly Alfred's although he is shown as unmarried

RG12 Piece 3203 Folio 88 Page 24

[Joanne Welch]

In 1894 the son Alfred (saying he was 30 then) married Mary Orton. They are my great-grandparents and my mum remembers Mary. I think ages may be approximate - he was illiterate, so presumably his parents were. Ages may not have been important. in Hanky Park, half the children died by the time they were 5. Survival was key, not record keeping.

Lena really puzzles me too. But if Mary really was born in 1836, as it says on her death cert, (an average of 1841 and 1861 on the other censuses) then she'd have been 47 or 48 giving birth to Lena - rare, but not impossible. My husband's Mum was 45 when she had him, her first, and her sisters were 44 and 47 when they gave birth that year too.

I think Alfred and Mary were probably a couple. I guess they were unmarried because Mary was RC and there wasn't an RC church in or nearby Salford at the time. Their grandson, my Grandad, was RC by birth - and it didn't come from his mother's side. They were Welsh coal miners.

Jo

[CaroleW]

With the exception of the 1871 census - Mary's birthyear of 1830/31 is consistent

The accuracy of information on death certs is very much dependant on the person who reported her death - presumably son Alfred

He may not have known her actual age so used "best guess" when asked

My great grandfather was 75 when he died but his daughter gave his age as 65 when she registered his death

[CaroleW]

Alfred married as Alfred Edward Ferns - not Alfred Brownbill Ferns and the 1901 image also shows him as Alfred Edward

If he died in 1927 - his birthyear was back to 1865 and he died just as Alfred Ferns

[Joanne Welch]

Thanks so much Carole. Alfred was always known as Alfred Edward Ferns, as was his son, my Mum's dad. Yes, I've got his wedding cert and the 1901 census showing young Alfred Edward with his sisters Ethel and Emily.

You may well be right about son Alfred underestimating age and 1831 being the right birth year for Mary. Young Lena is a mystery, I agree. She isn't registered as Lena, Helena, Selina or similar variant Brownbill as a daughter of Mary's. She may be the daughter of her son, Alfred Brownbill aka Edward, who was still living at home with his mum and sister in 1891 aged 30. I wonder if he was the father? It would be unusual for a son's mother to care for an unexpected baby, but it's possible.

Still I"ve got other more pressing mysteries to solve: Mary Ferns's origins  and also those of my other maternal grandad Martin Mulvey 1860-1928.

And work to do! Better get going!

Jo

[MagAgIs]

Hi you have mailed me on here but i cant reply for some reason.

I have the Ferns family on my ancestry site

James Ferns
1810–
BIRTH 1810 • Ireland
DEATH Unknown

Married to

Mary Golagally
1810–
BIRTH 1810 • Ireland
DEATH Unknown
are these the parents of Alfred?

Margaret