Author Topic: Coat of Arms  (Read 10711 times)

Offline Hanford

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Coat of Arms
« on: Sunday 20 February 11 17:59 GMT (UK) »
Hello,

Does anybody know of any where that you can find your families coat of arms?
I wrote off to the College of Arms about it, but they wanted to charge £600+ to look into it!  :o

Offline stanmapstone

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Re: Coat of Arms
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 20 February 11 18:47 GMT (UK) »
Just to point out that there is no such thing as a 'coat of arms for a surname'. Many people of the same surname will often be entitled to completely different coats of arms, and many of that surname will be entitled to no coat of arms. Coats of arms belong to individuals. For any person to have a right to a coat of arms they must either have had it granted to them or be descended in the legitimate male line from a person to whom arms were granted or confirmed in the past.

Stan
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Offline Hanford

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Re: Coat of Arms
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 20 February 11 19:00 GMT (UK) »
Thank you Stan  :)
The coat of arms is a bit of a mystery to us all as to who was given it.

Apparently it was made of wood and my great grandfather had either a seal or headed paper with it on? Would that be right for a coat of arms?

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Coat of Arms
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 20 February 11 20:03 GMT (UK) »
Just to point out that there is no such thing as a 'coat of arms for a surname'. Many people of the same surname will often be entitled to completely different coats of arms, and many of that surname will be entitled to no coat of arms. Coats of arms belong to individuals. For any person to have a right to a coat of arms they must either have had it granted to them or be descended in the legitimate male line from a person to whom arms were granted or confirmed in the past.

Stan

Sorry Stan but in England and Wales the first part is inaccurate and the last is simply a myth perpetuated by the College of Arms to allow them to charge extortionate fees.

In England and Wales there is a prescriptive right to bear arms as long as they do not infringe the rights of other persons.
The very basis of the herald’s visitations relies on the fact that people could claim a prescriptive right to arms and the fact that the heralds recognized those arms as being legally held.

It has never been suggested that those men who used a coat of arms in the 13th to 15th  centuries only did so by virtue of a grant of arms.
The truth is most simply assumed the arms by prescriptive right.

Yes some arms were granted by the sovereign through his/her authorised officers and some were granted to specific men for their lifetime only. Those are not the only way arms may be held as of a right.

In addition under English (& Welsh) heraldry unmarried daughter have a right to bear their father’s arms undifferenced. Sons may also use their father’s arms
This shows that arms do not simply belong to an individual or necessarily be descend in male line.

In the past arms though not belonging to a family did not belong to an individual but rather to the holder of the family lands.
I.E. a sort of halfway house between belonging to an individual and the land held by that individual. The individual almost having stewardship of those arms for his lifetime.
However this is complicated further by the fact that in early times a coat of arms could be assigned to another by its owner or indeed bequeathed in a will.

There are even cases where it can be shown that right of prescription takes precedence over a grant of arms.
E.G.
Sir Walter Mildmay obtained a grant from Gilbert Dethick, Garter, in 1554. In 1583 Mildmay produced some old family seals showing and earlier coat of arms. This earlier coat of arms was then restored, ratified and confirmed.
Cheers
Guy
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Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: Coat of Arms
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 20 February 11 23:22 GMT (UK) »
You are correct Guy that ways in which a coat of arms is inherited and the rules as to which family members can bear those arms differenced or not is complex.  However the point is that these rules do not entitle everyone with the same surname to use a coat of arms.

In fact the commercial firms trying to sell things bearing these arms are much more guilty than the College of Arms of trying to profit from them.
Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
DETAILS OF MY NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE
Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley.
Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse, Stevens, Batchelor
Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Coat of Arms
« Reply #5 on: Monday 21 February 11 07:49 GMT (UK) »
You are correct Guy that ways in which a coat of arms is inherited and the rules as to which family members can bear those arms differenced or not is complex.  However the point is that these rules do not entitle everyone with the same surname to use a coat of arms.

In fact the commercial firms trying to sell things bearing these arms are much more guilty than the College of Arms of trying to profit from them.

Agreed the fact that a person has the same surname as another does not qualify that person to use the same arms.
However that is not the same as stating that arms are held by an individual.

It should also be stated that there are instances of the same arms being legally used by people with no family connection at the same time and this use being proven and ratified in court.

English heraldry has no requirement for cadets to difference arms.
Cheers
Guy
http://anguline.co.uk/Framland/index.htm   The site that gives you facts not promises!
http://burial-inscriptions.co.uk Tombstones & Monumental Inscriptions.

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Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: Coat of Arms
« Reply #6 on: Monday 21 February 11 09:50 GMT (UK) »
English heraldry has no requirement for cadets to difference arms.

Although this is essentially true, there is a set of standard set of brissures which are defined in England for cadency purposes.  These were fairly strictly applied during the Middle Ages and at least the three pointed label signifying the eldest son is still used by the higher ranks.

David
Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
DETAILS OF MY NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE
Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley.
Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse, Stevens, Batchelor
Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Little Nell

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Re: Coat of Arms
« Reply #7 on: Monday 21 February 11 12:59 GMT (UK) »
Perhaps we might return to Rachey's original query and try to answer that specifically?

Rachey,

Not all families or family names have a coat of arms.  Can you say why you think that your family might have had or been entitled to use a coat of arms?  And what is the family name in question?

There are some reference books in which you could check to see if any family of that name has used a coat of arms in the past, but then you need to prove that you are linked to the family who used them.  Unless you are aware that your father or grandfather used a coat of arms, then it seems unlikely that there is a coat of arms attached to your particular family.

At least one of my family names is listed as using a coat of arms in the 17th century, but there is considerable debate as to whether they were entitled to do so.  It has brought about considerable speculation about links to an apparently different family name in medieval times and perhaps indicates more about how the name has evolved in spelling and pronunciation over the years.

Nell
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Offline Hanford

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Re: Coat of Arms
« Reply #8 on: Monday 21 February 11 13:18 GMT (UK) »
Perhaps we might return to Rachey's original query and try to answer that specifically?

Rachey,

Not all families or family names have a coat of arms.  Can you say why you think that your family might have had or been entitled to use a coat of arms?  And what is the family name in question?

There are some reference books in which you could check to see if any family of that name has used a coat of arms in the past, but then you need to prove that you are linked to the family who used them.  Unless you are aware that your father or grandfather used a coat of arms, then it seems unlikely that there is a coat of arms attached to your particular family.

At least one of my family names is listed as using a coat of arms in the 17th century, but there is considerable debate as to whether they were entitled to do so.  It has brought about considerable speculation about links to an apparently different family name in medieval times and perhaps indicates more about how the name has evolved in spelling and pronunciation over the years.

Nell

Thank you  ;)

I know for sure we had one, as my great gran said it used to be above the piano  ;D

The surname is Annely/Anneley... I'm not too sure why we would of had a coat of arms as the family from the 1800s were carpenters, and before then Gunsmiths.

I know my great great grandfather bulit alot of houses for the poor and was invited to tea with the Dutchee of Cornwall and met with the King... Maybe they gave him it? 

One theory is he may have made it himself... What with him being a carpenter an sort of sounding like the type of man that would  ::)

I looked through the links to books posted on here but there is no mention of Annely's anywhere  :-\ Would it definitely be in a book if we had a real one?  ???