Author Topic: Question about WO 22 pension payment returns  (Read 2586 times)

Offline Rol

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Question about WO 22 pension payment returns
« on: Sunday 27 February 11 05:19 GMT (UK) »


I would be most grateful for the advice of any Kew regular(s) familiar with the mid-19thc. pension payment records for Chelsea out-pensioners contained in class WO 22.  The information is needed to help discover a sufficiently precise reference to facilitate a lookup request.

I have information strongly suggesting that in the late 1840s a certain Thomas Davies collected his money at Ruthin Payment Office in Denbighshire.  I understand from TNA's website that such offices were grouped into "Payment Districts" for administrative purposes,  and that the monthly returns from the individual offices were bound into volumes by Payment District.

My problem is that I can see no comprehensive online listing to show which offices came within the purview of which district.  Some public-spirited person seems to have started with the intention of creating such a finding-aid in the Your Archives user-generated section of TNA's site;  but to date only a few districts have been covered in this useful way.

The obvious district for the Payment Office at Ruthin would seem to be the one known as East Wales (the ?only other Welsh one being called West Wales).  But there may be a risk that nearby places over the border in Wales could have been allocated to Chester District (following ancient practice in such matters),  and I am keen not to have to ask any lookup benefactor to inspect the volumes for both districts.

So,  short of physically searching both volumes,  does anyone with experience in such matters know of some means whereby one can ascertain the correct district in advance?  Or happen to know from personal research which district covered Ruthin?  (I was wondering whether there might be a hand-list on the open shelves at Kew,  or MS guidance written into the hard copy of the Catalogue;  the generalist TNA adviser who tried to assist me over the phone seemed fairly uncertain about the matter,  but rather doubted that such information was available.)

If this enquiry sounds at all familiar,  that is likely to be because a related topic was active a week or so ago on the Common Room board about the meaning in 1847 of the unqualified description "pensioner".  Should any reader of this post wish to refer to that thread for fuller details of the specifics of Davies's case (including an onward link to a thread on the Denbighshire board),  here is a link.


Rol


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Offline maidmarianoops

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Re: Question about WO 22 pension payment returns
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 09 March 11 13:44 GMT (UK) »
records for Chelsea out-pensioners

put this into google search images and you should find some of  the info you need



sylvia
notts/derbys clark
      "        "      stenson
        "       "    nicholson
       "     "        jarvis
                         castledine
    rhodes

 
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Rol

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Re: Question about WO 22 pension payment returns
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 12 March 11 21:11 GMT (UK) »


Many thanks for that suggestion,  Sylvia.  Having at last had some time to do so,  I've now browsed through quite a lot of the images that those words bring up.  (Found that adding "- football" shortened the list rather usefully! ;))  As you doubtless saw yourself,  the hits produced include some very interesting photocopies of individual documents that people have put up onto the web in relation to their own family history research -- though one does wonder how many of them sought copyright clearance first.  Excellent samples of what one may hope to find.

But the best thing I came across was the write-up that an Australian called Grahame Thom has placed onto his genealogical website (here).  Although he understandably focuses on the copious surviving records about payments to pensioners resident in the Antipodes,  his thoughts have more general relevance,  and other RootsChat users may therefore find the above link quite helpful.

His bibliography -- near the foot of the page -- referred me to a good article by Rosemary Oliver published in the London SoG's Genealogists' Magazine back in 1984.  Its full citation is:
Quote
Oliver, R. M., “War Office District Pension Returns 1842-62”, Genealogists’ Magazine, Vol. 21 No 6 (June 1984), pp.196-9

Unfortunately I have failed to find any info that assists with the narrow problem specified in my original post -- i.e. no ref. to the exact Payment District that included the office at Ruthin.  Interestingly,  Rosemary Oliver's experience during her research was that district names that initially appear to cover a single county often in fact include a number of offices beyond that county's boundaries.  As she wrote about Lincoln,  Sheffield and Carlisle Districts,
Quote
I noted the places at which pensioners were paid and found that some of them were well outside the relevant counties ... It is not sufficient merely to consult the volumes for the obvious county town.

Examples she goes on to cite include the offices at Newark (located in Lincoln District);  Bakewell,  Chesterfield and Worksop (Sheffield District);  and Langholm,  Annan and -- for a period -- Stranraer (Carlisle District).

As the Carlisle example actually includes payment offices over the border in Scotland,  it must intensify the risk of a parallel situation applying in relation to Ruthin -- suggesting the town's possible attachment to Chester,  regardless of its being geographically in "East Wales".

So,  if anything I am left even less certain than before.  I fear that any TNA visitor who may step forward to help really will need to order up the volumes for both districts.

Two other practical points for researchers emerge from Rosemary Oliver's piece:

Quote
[T]he returns for 1852-53 tend to be bound in front of those for 1842-51, at least in the volumes I have seen.

So one should not too hastily assume that the returns for the years one is seeking are lost or in another volume.

As to RN and HEICS pensioners,  this observation seems worth bearing in mind:

Quote
Until 1847 only Chelsea is mentioned, thereafter names of Greenwich and East India Company pensioners begin to appear ...

Hope some of the foregoing may assist other people.


Rol




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Offline maidmarianoops

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Re: Question about WO 22 pension payment returns
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 10 April 11 11:52 BST (UK) »
hello glad my info was of help .
sylvia
notts/derbys clark
      "        "      stenson
        "       "    nicholson
       "     "        jarvis
                         castledine
    rhodes

 
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline km1971

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Re: Question about WO 22 pension payment returns
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 10 April 11 14:15 BST (UK) »
Each payment district came under a Staff Officer of Pensioners. There were only two based in Wales - Carmarthan and Cardiff. So Ruthin would have come under Chester. The one covering 1842 to 1852 is WO22/19

Ken

Offline Rol

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Re: Question about WO 22 pension payment returns
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 10 April 11 18:36 BST (UK) »


Yes Sylvia,  it was very useful -- thanks again!

Each payment district came under a Staff Officer of Pensioners. There were only two based in Wales - Carmarthan and Cardiff. So Ruthin would have come under Chester. The one covering 1842 to 1852 is WO22/19

Ken

Ken,  that is fantastic info -- many thanks indeed!  So Rosemary Oliver really was pointing in the right direction:

... Examples she goes on to cite include the offices at Newark (located in Lincoln District);  Bakewell,  Chesterfield and Worksop (Sheffield District);  and Langholm,  Annan and -- for a period -- Stranraer (Carlisle District).

As the Carlisle example actually includes payment offices over the border in Scotland,  it must intensify the risk of a parallel situation applying in relation to Ruthin -- suggesting the town's possible attachment to Chester,  regardless of its being geographically in "East Wales".

May I ask out of curiosity,  does your knowledge about the three locations you mention come from your own hands-on research -- or did you find it via some useful book,  or a webpage that I failed to spot during my original info-hunt (either of which could be useful to me and others for future ref.)?

I take it from what you write that the presence there of (resident?) Staff Officers of Pensions means that Carmarthen and Cardiff were the supervising HQs for entire Payment Districts -- i.e. they did not function solely as individual Payment Offices.  Put another way (given that Wales is known to have been home to only two Payment Districts),  are we safe in saying that in the WO22s,  the Payment District run from Carmarthen is the one named in the records as "West Wales",  and the Payment District run from Cardiff is the one named in the records as "East Wales"?

The system seems to have been very S.Wales-centric.  I suppose that the effects of coal wealth on population numbers started to manifest themselves pretty early on -- though you might think that not very many Waterloo vets. with crutches would have been queuing up to become mineral hewers.

I wonder whether your source (or another you know about) lists all the individual Payment Offices that came under each of Carmarthen,  Cardiff and Chester?  Presumably there were offices in places like Holyhead,  Caernarfon and Dolgellau to serve local pensioners.  Such Old Campaigners probably thought -- not unreasonably -- that they lived in Western Wales,  as opposed to Eastern Wales,  or even "Greater Chester".  Whether their local offices were administered from Carmarthen or Chester may be a whole new puzzle.  But I am very glad that Ruthin,  at least,  has been unpuzzled. ;)

Now it's just a question of that lookup . . . in,  as you confirm,  WO22/19.  Fingers still crossed. :)


Rol


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Offline km1971

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Re: Question about WO 22 pension payment returns
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 10 April 11 19:31 BST (UK) »
The information comes from the 1850 Army List, which lists all the officers and where they were based. I think the ‘places of payment’ were more likely to have been a room in a tavern booked for a day, rather than a ‘payment office’.

If you search for Birmingham in WO22 the NA Catalogue they list the 'places of payment' - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=27048&CATLN=6&Highlight=%2CPAYMENT&accessmethod=0

Unfortunately, whoever indexed this bit of the Catalogue gave up after Brighton. So when you search for Chester et al after Brighton you do not get a list of places covered.

The only officers listed in Wales were as I have stated. If you search for Cardiff in WO22 – you get no hits. So you are probably correct that East Wales came under the officer living in Cardiff; with the officer in Carmarthen being West Wales.

Ken

Offline maidmarianoops

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Re: Question about WO 22 pension payment returns
« Reply #7 on: Monday 11 April 11 02:01 BST (UK) »
notts/derbys clark
      "        "      stenson
        "       "    nicholson
       "     "        jarvis
                         castledine
    rhodes

 
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Rol

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Re: Question about WO 22 pension payment returns
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 12 April 11 22:16 BST (UK) »
 

The information comes from the 1850 Army List, which lists all the officers and where they were based.  ... The only officers listed in Wales were as I have stated. If you search for Cardiff in WO22 – you get no hits. So you are probably correct that East Wales came under the officer living in Cardiff; with the officer in Carmarthen being West Wales.

Thanks very much for that amplification,  Ken.  I suppose that there may be a residual risk that some Payment Districts (most likely the remoter ones) were supervised by non-resident Staff Officers of Pensioners,  based in larger cities or major garrison towns outside the formal boundaries of the district(s) for which they held responsibility.  Which would then carry the implication that supervising officers' places of residence might have no conclusive implications for the boundaries of Payment Districts.  As usual,  definitive proof of the pudding can probably only come with the eating . . .

I certainly agree with your point about pensions probably being disbursed from hired rooms at inns etc,  rather than from permanently manned "offices" -- at least in the more rural areas.

With reference to
...  Some public-spirited person seems to have started with the intention of creating such a finding-aid in the Your Archives user-generated section of TNA's site;  but to date only a few districts have been covered in this useful way.
and to
If you search for Birmingham in WO22 the NA Catalogue they list the 'places of payment' ... Unfortunately, whoever indexed this bit of the Catalogue gave up after Brighton. So when you search for Chester et al after Brighton you do not get a list of places covered.
as you say,  it is certainly very unfortunate that the project seems to be on hold or abandoned.  Let's hope the baton will be picked up again before long.


Sylvia,

Thanks for that thought (Reply 7),  but I have had a browse there without much luck.  I suppose it is expecting a lot of such a website to hope for coverage of historic record series at quite the micro level of detail we have been discussing.


Rol


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