James Howe, and son? Joseph Howe

[tewilso]

The two discovered matches however do not triangulate with the Earl. This is not in the least surprising. I also descend from Rebecca Howe.

If you have a MyHeritage username, please let me know it. Ditto for Ancestry (I’m wilsont40 on it).

Thank you.

[melcart1]

Wonderful news:-)
My username for both is Melcart1. I'd love to find out how close we are related.

Now, when you say you have included Scrope Howe artificially, does that mean you are waiting for further confirmation?

And, because I am kind of dense about all this, do you have confidence now that our Joseph and James were related? It sounds like you do.

[tewilso]

Status update 10/2/2020:

The Earl Howe recently uploaded his DNA test to Ancestry and has allowed me to manage the site. I subsequently uploaded a family tree that I constructed (2076 members), that includes many of his relatives going back to Emanuel Scrope Howe, the 2nd Viscount Howe, his 5th great-grandfather. With the assumption that Joseph Howe might have been an unacknowledged son of ESH, I then linked Joseph as his son in the tree, and continued adding many of his descendants. The resulting ThruLines for the Earl yielded NO matches at all by selecting any of the ancestors of the Earl in-line to, and including ESH. (I have found three descendants of Joseph who do match the Earl Howe by using various surnames in the manual search field. They are Karen Madding Childs, Tracie Bell, and SuzyTuckerSealy.) On the other hand, if I use the same tree using the DNA of Dana Dunbar Howe (Joseph was only her 3-great grandfather), I find 13 ThruLine matches to descendants of Joseph Howe, if I click on ESH (her presumed 4th g-gfather), and over 80 matches if I clicked on Joseph Howe. The lack of any ThruLines for Earl Howe, except for 9 linked through his maternal great-grandfather, to me is therefore surprising. This leads me to conclude the Ancestry ThruLines evidence tends to disprove any link to Joseph Howe through ESH rather than to support it. I just don't know if the manually-found, non-ThruLine matches to the Earl Howe are significant. They may match through other lines. Recall, I had also found two (the others that I had thought may have been descendants of Joseph turned out not to be so) matches manually on MyHeritage to the Earl Howe; these were Barbara Jane Paris and Mary Elizabeth Dolack. On Ancestry, the Earl Howe's username is: Frederick Howe

[melcart1]

Thank you ever so much for the additional information. I, too, find it surprising and interesting. Since we both descend from Rebecca Howe, daughter of James Howe, who do you have for her paternal grandfather in your family tree? I trust your information.
Melissa

[tewilso]

I’ve re-read the reply, now some years old already, from nhh on this thread. The mention of a Joseph and Elizabeth How(e) as parents of a Joseph How(e) born in Shrimpling, Suffolk County in 1729

————

“I should apologize for making you repeat yourself. I had previously read this thread and then on a lark last night decided to see if I could get a response. Upon a re-read, I see that you go back 6 generations to Joseph. If I am not being too forward, are you descended from Eliza (Lily) Tyler and Henry Harrison Wilson? Also, did you go to Sunnyside? Were you allowed access? I also saw that med Nell was a descendant. It's just fun to find others, with whom I would never have had an opportunity to correspond, with a common heritage.

And no, I am not disappointed. I liken this to a mystery novel. I generally don't put one down easily until completion. I'm impatient. I have always heard that the relationship to the crown was an illegitimate one and I'm still hung up on reading that Joseph was the "son of James" though I'm not certain now where I read it. (Gov. Tyler perhaps) I'm pondering if this indeed could be the case; if the birth was not in Hampshire County plus, who was Rebecca? Someone had to get her name somewhere. James died in 1728 and I show Joseph being born either in 1720 or 1729. Whichever, this would not preclude James. I also suspect that an illegitimate birth would be whispered, but not written. Your thoughts?

I also have a copy of a typed statement, signed by R.D. Howe, which gives the story of Joseph being the brother of George Augustus Howe and the top of the statement says "As taken from Westminster Abbey". Curious.

My initial search led me to "if legends are true" which showed him born in Effingham, Surrey. However, that familysearch.org leads to a Joseph in CN. There is confusion in this link but it does mention the Baronet of Compton.

I also used it for a specific birth year of 1729 which led to: Joseph How, christened 4-7-1729 in the Parish of Shrimpling, Suffolk County. This Joseph's parents being Joseph and Elizabeth.

The information on geni.com shows Joseph being born in Warwickshire. It gives the names of who added the information and who it is managed by (whatever that means) and I will see if I can get a response as to where this information came from and any substantiating evidence.

I'm sure I have added very little, if anything, in this pursuit and I apologize for my lack of brevity. I welcome further correspondence from you. I would just like to be able to give Joseph a family prior to his arrival in the states. Best Regards, Nancy

P.S. I'd also like to clean up the other threads if the mystery is solved.”

—————

I have requested from the British national archives, two documents pertaining to the conveyance of a manor from a Joseph and Elizabeth Howe, to Henry, the 3rd Duke of Beaufort, in 1739. Again, this manor was only a few miles or less from another owned by Wiltshire-based Baronet Howe line.

These were noted in ref. 134 in: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/wilts/vol11/pp165-181#fnn133
Dates: 1739

I’ll post the results here as soon as they arrive.

[tewilso]

Dear all,

Some interesting news regarding a Joseph Howe in the time period of 1739. An update. I have received a transcription (June 2021) of first item from reference 134 of BHO "Parishes: Netheravon", namely: WILTSHIRE: Feet of Fines for 12 Geo II Hil’ (reference: CP 25/2/1233/12GEOIIHIL). This document was from the British National Archives and describes the conveyance of the manor (Netheravon with Haxton) in 1739 from Joseph and Elizabeth Howe to the 3rd Duke of Beaufort:

According to the form of the statutes.
The first proclam[ation] was made the twelfth day of Feb[ruar]y in Hilary term in the twelfth year of the King. William Written.
The second proclam[ation] was made the second day of June in Easter term in the twelfth year of the King. William Written.
The third proclam[ation] was made the fifth day of July in Trinity term in the thirteenth year of the King. William Written.
The fourth proclam[ation] was made the tenth day of November in Mich[aelm]as term in the thirteenth year of the King. William Written.
 
This is the oficial agreem[en]t made in the Court of our Sovereign Lord the King at Westm[inste]r on the
morrow of the purification of the blessed Mary in the twelfth year of the reign of George the
Second by the grace of God of Great Britain France & Ireland King Defender of the Faith, etc. Before
John Willes, Alex[ande]r Denton, John Fortescue and William Fortescue Justices of our Lord the King
& others then & there present Between Henry Duke of Beauford pl[ain]t[iff] and Joseph Howe & Elizabeth his
wife deforc[ien]ts of the manors of Netherhaven & Netherhaven with Hagglestone with the appurt[enances] and
of fourteen messuages two mills fourteen gardens fourteen orchards one thousand two hundred
acres of land one hundred & sixty acres of meadow one hundred & ten acres of pasture forty five acres of
wood three thousand five hundred acres of furze & heath forty shillings rent com[m]on of pasture
for all man[n]er of cattle & a view of frank pledge with the appurt[enance]s in the parish of Netherhaven &
Haggleston. Whereupon a plea of Coven[an]t was sum[m]oned between them in the same court that is
to say that the af[oresai]d Joseph Howe acknowledged the af[oresai]d manors tenem[ent]s Com[m]on of pasture
View of frank pledge with the appurt[enance]s to be the right of him the s[ai]d Duke as those which the s[ai]d Duke
hath of the gift of the afo[resai]d Joseph & Elizabeth and those they have received & quit claimed from them the
s[ai]d Joseph & Elizabeth & their heirs to the af[oresai]d Duke & his heirs for ever. And moreover the s[ai]d Joseph &
Elizabeth have granted for them & the heirs of the s[ai]d Elizabeth the af[oresai]d manors tenem[en]ts com[m]on
of pasture & View of frank pledge with the appurt[enance]s ag[ains]t them the s[ai]d Joseph & Elizabeth & the heirs of
the s[ai]d Elizabeth for ever. And for this acknowledgm[en]t to receive quit claim warr[ant]ys fine & agreem[en]t the
s[ai]d Duke hath given to the af[oresai]d Joseph & Elizabeth one thousand eight hundred pounds Sterling.
 
The above has been set out with the same lines as the original, for easy checking.
Letters in brackets are implied abbreviations.

This manor was located in the same village where another manor owned by Sir Richard Grobham, Baronet, Sir John Howe, Baronet, and later, his nephew and great-nephew, both Sir Richard Howe, Baronet. Hence, it may be that this Joseph Howe may have been the same or the father of Joseph Howe of colonial Virginia, as he would indeed have been a cousin to the Viscount Howe's of Nottingham.

Except from Parishes: Netheravon below:

From Sir John (d. 1559), the estate passed to his son Henry (d. 1594), and grandson John (d. 1639). (fn. 109) Sir John Brune sold in 1626 to Sir Richard Grobham (d. 1629). (fn. 110) Sir Richard's eventual heir was apparently his sister Joan, wife of John Howe of Bishop's Lydeard (Som.). (fn. 111) The property passed from Joan to her son Sir John Howe, Bt., grandson Sir Richard Howe, Bt. (d. 1703), and greatgrandson, another Sir Richard (d.s.p. 1730). (fn. 112) The estate then passed to Sir Richard's cousin John Howe (cr. Baron Chedworth 1741, d. 1742), and thereafter descended with the Chedworth title until the death of John, Lord Chedworth, in 1804. (fn. 113) It was offered for sale in 1807. (fn. 114) The lands were acquired by the Hicks Beach family in the following year and afterwards formed part of their Netheravon estate, (fn. 115) which then comprised c. 673 a. in Netheravon and c. 410 a. in Haxton. (fn. 116)

Thomas

[tewilso]

It turns out that Norfolk Records Office had a document "FEL 1017" shed more light upon the conveyance of a manor in Netheravon, Wiltshire sold by a Joseph Howe and his wife Elizabeth in 1738 to the 3rd Duke of Beaufort. The family origins of this Joseph Howe remain unknown however, we did learn the following -  a report below from a Norwich-based genealogist who visited the NRO.

Perhaps we can learn more about this Joseph Howe from Middlesex records.

"Here is the information I found in FEL 1017 (see attached), This
indicates that the manor of Netherhavon previously belonged to the
grandfather of Joseph’s wife! She was the heir of Richard Kitson
gentleman of Wiltshire.  Joseph is described as being of St Sepulchre’s
parish, Middlesex.  It seems Joseph Howe and his wife were married at St
Sepulchre’s church in London on 7 October 1721 (from online indexes). I
am intrigued by the fact that Joseph’s profession was given as a
lapidary in 1721, but by 1739 he was a chocolate maker!"

The contents contained the following:

FEL1017

Cover title: Joseph Howes & ux[or] (wife) to The Duke of Beaufort - Deed of Bargain & Sale Dated 17th January 1738 Enrolled in the Warrants of Attorney Office

This Indenture made the 17th day of January in the 12th Year of the Reign
of our Sovereign Lord George the Second by the Grace of God of Great Britain
France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith and so forth and in the Year
of our Lord 1738 Between Joseph Howe of the Parish of St Sepulchers in the
County of Middlesex Chocolatemaker and Elizabeth his wife Grandaughter
and Heir at Law of Richard Kitson late of Ambresbury in the County of
Wilts Gentleman dec[eas]ed of the one part and the Most Noble Henry Duke of
Beaufort Marquise and Earl of Worsester Earl of Glamorgan Baron
Herbert of Raglan Chepstow and Gower of the other part Witnesseth that
for and in Consideracion of the Sum of £200 of Good and Lawful Money of
Great Britain to the said Joseph Howe and Elizabeth his wife in hand
at and before the Ensealing and Delivery of these presents well and
truly paid by the said Henry Duke fo Beaufort The Receipt whereof
the said Joseph Howe and Elizabeth his wife hereby acknowledge
accordingly They the said Joseph Howe and Elizabeth his wife Have
and each of them Hath Bargained and sold and by these presents
Do and each of them Doth Bargain and sell unto the said Henry
Duke of Beaufort his Heirs and Assigns All that the Mannor or
Reputed Mannor heretofore of Edward Duke Esquire and late of the said
Richard Kitson in Netherhaven in the said County of Wilts together
with all those messuages or Tenements Lands & Hereditaments whatsoever
with the appurtenances heretofore in the several Tenures or occupacions
of John Samwell Daniel Sutton alias Gill and William Tripp
and now or late in the several Tenures or occupacions of Robert
Ramsey Robert Taylor and William Atwood & every or either of them &c…….
and Also the several Quitt Rents Issuing due & payable &c. ……
all & singular houses outhouses buildings &c &c……
various yearly rents &c….
….To have & to hold the said mannor
or Reputed Mannor in Netherhaven Messuages Farms Lands
Rents Hereditaments & all & singular other the premisses
hereinbefore Bargained & sold or Mentioned or Intended
so to be and every part and parcell thereof with their and
every of their appurtenances unto the said Henry Duke of
Beaufort his Heirs & assigns To the Use and Behoofe
of the said Henry Duke of Beaufort his Heirs and
Assigns for ever and to and for no other Use Interest
purpose whatsoever. In Witness &c

[No signatures]