Author Topic: James and Elizabeth - such common names  (Read 3992 times)

Offline MabelLucy

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James and Elizabeth - such common names
« on: Friday 25 March 11 03:00 GMT (UK) »
I have a marriage certificate for my great grandmother Agnes Ada Brown who was married to William John Richardson July 20 1884. I also have a marriage cert for her father, Thomas Cockson Brown who was married to Sophia Thomas December 25 1856, both couples married at St Philip's Church, Bethnal Green, Middlesex. Thomas and Sophias certificate is signed by James Brown (groom's father) and Elizabeth Brown. Sophia's father is called James (Thomas) also. One of William and Ada's witnesses was Ida Henrietta Brown who I know was Agnes's sister.

I am having great difficulty tracking down this couple and have been looking for James Browns possibly married to Elizabeths. I have found one census entry for a James and Elizabeth Brown (his birth place looks like Herefordshire or Hertfordshire and hers is Newport, Isle of Wight.

The trouble is, they are such common names and there are no end of James Browns married to Elizabeths in the Bethnal Green area/London area. It is all very confusing and I hope you can help

Many thanks
Jenny
Jackson, Richardson, Feecham, Bachelier, Deverdun, Cranmer, Hickton, De Courcy Hickton, Dale, Brown, Cockson Brown, Thomas, James, Gault - England, France.

McAtasney, McIlvaney, Cook, McSloy, Baker, Lamont, Murray - Scotland, Ireland.

Biggs, McAtasney, Sheehan, Fleming - Falkland Islands, Ireland, England

Offline Ruskie

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Re: James and Elizabeth - such common names
« Reply #1 on: Friday 25 March 11 05:48 GMT (UK) »
Jenny,

How do you know that the James Brown who signed Thomas and Sophia's certificate, is Thomas's father?

How do you know that Elizabeth Brown who signed the same certificate, is James's wife (and Thomas's mother)?

Occupations can sometimes help identify the correct person if there are several possibilities ...
Do you know the names and dobs of any of Thomas's siblings? If so, maybe you could find the family group together on the censuses ...

Offline MabelLucy

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Re: James and Elizabeth - such common names
« Reply #2 on: Friday 25 March 11 08:24 GMT (UK) »
Hi Ruskie

I know that James Brown is Thomas Cockson Brown's father because it says he is on the certificate and it also says he was a watchman. I don't know that the Elizabeth Brown who was the witness was his mother - that is my problem as there are so many James Browns and  Elizabeth Browns. I have spent a great deal of time searching for census groups but as yet have not been able to find one that I think is the right one. I guess I will just have to keep looking.

Thanks for your help.

Jenny
Jackson, Richardson, Feecham, Bachelier, Deverdun, Cranmer, Hickton, De Courcy Hickton, Dale, Brown, Cockson Brown, Thomas, James, Gault - England, France.

McAtasney, McIlvaney, Cook, McSloy, Baker, Lamont, Murray - Scotland, Ireland.

Biggs, McAtasney, Sheehan, Fleming - Falkland Islands, Ireland, England

Offline [Ray]

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Re: James and Elizabeth - such common names
« Reply #3 on: Friday 25 March 11 08:28 GMT (UK) »
Hi

Consider - The Brown family you quote (Hereford & IOW) has the son of the "correct" age matching the marriage certificate.

Ray

 
"The wise man knows how little he knows, the foolish man does not". My Grandfather & Father.

"You can’t give kindness away.  It keeps coming back". Mark Twain (?).


Offline MabelLucy

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Re: James and Elizabeth - such common names
« Reply #4 on: Friday 25 March 11 08:42 GMT (UK) »
Yes I have already considered that and they have got a son called Thomas of the correct age.

Jenny
Jackson, Richardson, Feecham, Bachelier, Deverdun, Cranmer, Hickton, De Courcy Hickton, Dale, Brown, Cockson Brown, Thomas, James, Gault - England, France.

McAtasney, McIlvaney, Cook, McSloy, Baker, Lamont, Murray - Scotland, Ireland.

Biggs, McAtasney, Sheehan, Fleming - Falkland Islands, Ireland, England

Offline Ruskie

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Re: James and Elizabeth - such common names
« Reply #5 on: Friday 25 March 11 12:05 GMT (UK) »
Hi Ruskie
I know that James Brown is Thomas Cockson Brown's father because it says he is on the certificate and it also says he was a watchman.

Jenny, I understand that James is named as Thomas's father and his occupation is 'watchman'.

But as far as I am aware the witnesses relationship to the bride and groom are not given on marriage certificates:
http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/marriages.htm#COL10

... just wondering if the witnesses James and Elizabeth Brown may have been siblings, cousins or some other relation of the groom ...  :-\

Offline Ruskie

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Re: James and Elizabeth - such common names
« Reply #6 on: Friday 25 March 11 12:15 GMT (UK) »
How old was Thomas Cockson Brown when he married Sophia?

Offline Valda

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Re: James and Elizabeth - such common names
« Reply #7 on: Friday 25 March 11 12:53 GMT (UK) »
Hi

1861 census RG9 252 folio 67
10 William Street Bethnal Green Middlesex
Thomas C Brown 28 Head Married Labourer Bucks
Sophia Brown 34 Wife Married Swansea Glamorganshire
Jessie Brown 6 Daughter Cripplegate Middlesex
Laura E Brown 4 Daughter Bethnal Green Middlesex
Julia H Brown 2 Daughter St Georges Wapping Middlesex

Difficult to find the family on the 1871 census.


1881 census RG11 480 folio 56
3 North Square Miles End Old Town
Thomas Brown 47 Head Married Labourer Dock Bethnal Green Middlesex
Sophia Brown 48 Wife Married Miles End Middlesex
Laura Brown 23 Daughter Unmarried Laundress Mile End Middlesex
Ida Brown 20 Daughter Artifical Florist Mile End Middlesex
James Brown 19 Son Labourer Dock Mile End Middlesex
Agnes Brown 15 Daughter General Servant (unemployed) Mile End Middlesex


The 1851 census confirms Sophia's birthplace as Swansea casting doubt on the 1881 census birthplace information for Thomas.

1851 census HO107 1549? folio ?
21 Park Cemetery Bethnal Green Middlesex
Charles Hunt 37 Head Married Superintendant Isle of Wight
Sarah Hunt 31 Wife Married Swansea Wales
Edward T Hunt 16 Son Middlesex
W James Hunt 10 Son Middlesex
Lawin? C Hunt 2 Son Middlesex
Sophia Thomas 29 Sister Swansea Wales
Henerita Thomas 12 Sister Swansea Wales



Regards

Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline MabelLucy

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Re: James and Elizabeth - such common names
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 26 March 11 05:56 GMT (UK) »
Thank you Valda - you have helped me before with some evidence from the records for another part of my family. I really appreciate your input - very helpful. I had found Sophia with the Glamorgan Wales entry and it is attached to my family tree, but had then found the other census entry (1881) saying she came from Middlesex, so I was tending to discount Glamorgan as her birth place, but I hadn't found the third census entry (1851) you provided with her sister added as well.

As there is a James Brown listed as her brother in the 1881 census, the witness could have been Thomas's brother rather than his father, but he does not seem to have a sister called Elizabeth I note.

Thank you once again - this gives me some more amunition to carry on my search with.

Jenny
Jackson, Richardson, Feecham, Bachelier, Deverdun, Cranmer, Hickton, De Courcy Hickton, Dale, Brown, Cockson Brown, Thomas, James, Gault - England, France.

McAtasney, McIlvaney, Cook, McSloy, Baker, Lamont, Murray - Scotland, Ireland.

Biggs, McAtasney, Sheehan, Fleming - Falkland Islands, Ireland, England