Author Topic: Ann & Thomas Culley - Are they siblings or am I just desperate?  (Read 3110 times)

Offline KitCarson

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Ann & Thomas Culley - Are they siblings or am I just desperate?
« on: Saturday 23 April 11 17:56 BST (UK) »
I hope someone can help me decide whether Ann and Thomas are siblings.  I've listed all the info I have which could be relevant and apologise in advance.   ::)
 
Ann Cully (Culley/Culy) my GGGM, baptised her illegitimate son Robert on 18 Oct1839 (b. 10 Oct 1839) at Blackbrook Chapel (RC) sponsors Henry Seddon and Mary Adamson.

1841c can't identify Ann or Robert
 
1 Jul 1849 Ann marries William Rimmer (GGGF) at Blackbrook.  Both are of full age.  Ann's father is William Culy - JOINER.  Witnesses James Rimmer and Elizabeth Blare (or Clare).
 
1851c New St, Sutton HO107-2195-278-20
William Rimmer Head 33 Labourer Windle/Lancashire
Ann Rimmer Wife 33 Sutton/Lancashire
Robert Rimmer SON 11 Sutton/Lancashire
 
7 Sept 1851 birth James Rimmer (GGF), Ditch Hillock, Sutton. Bap 14 Sept, St Anne's, Sutton (RC)
17 May 1855 birth Elizabeth Rimmer, Peasley Cross Lane. Bap 20 May, St Anne's
21 June 1858 birth William Rimmer, Peasley Cross Lane. Bap 4 July, St Anne's
 
25 May 1860 husband William dies aged 42.
 
1861c Peasley Cross Lane RG09-2753-140-1
Ann Rimmer Head 44 widow 1817 Provision Dealer Sutton/Lancashire
James Rimmer Son 9  Sutton/Lancashire
Elizabeth Rimmer Dau 5 Sutton/Lancashire
William Rimmer Son 2 Suton/Lancashire
 
10 Mar 1862 Elizabeth dies aged 6. CoD Enteritis 3 days.  The informant is Thomas Culley - In Attendance - Residence Ditch Hillock, Sutton.  I'm hoping that this could be her Uncle, Anne's brother.
 
12 Apr 1863 Ann marries John Caddick at St Anne's
Widow/Peasley Cross, Sutton/Father: William Culley (deceased) JOINER
Witnesses are James & Elizabeth Caddick

1871c Peasley Cross Beer House RG10-3866-161-38
John Caddick Head 36 Plumber St Helens/Lancs
Ann Caddick wife 50 St Helens/Lancs
James Limmer SON 20 St Helens/Lancs
Will Limmer SON 13 St Helens/Lancs

Ann dies in 1874 and is buried at St Anne's
 
1861c Thomas Cully and family living New Street, Ditch Hillock RG09-2754-59-60
Thomas H 49 Stone Mason/Beerseller b. Lancs/Sutton
Ann 44 b. Lancs/Sutton
Elizabeth 20 b. Lancs/Eccleston
plus other children
 
1841c there is a Culley family living with a Hill family, Church St, Eccleston
HO107-516-7/12-16
Samuel Hill 45 Ag L bic
Mary Hill 45 bic
Samuel Hill 10 bic
James Hill 20 bic
Joseph Hill 15 bic
John Hill 9 bic
Thomas Hill 5 bic
Thomas Culley 25 S/M (stonemason?) bic
Ann Culley 20 bic
Elizabeth Culley 7m bic
 
I've just received the marriage cert for the only Thomas Culley/Ann Hill I can find, which is in Wigan. 10 Aug 1840. The Parish Church in the Parish of Wigan after Banns.
Thomas Culley 28 Bachelor/Stone Mason/Residence at time of marriage: Billinge Chapel End. Father: William Culley TAILOR
Ann Hill 21 Spinster/Residence at time of marriage: Billinge Chapel End. Father: Samuel Hill COLLIER
Witnesses - Joseph Hill (brother?) Mary Hill (Mother?)
 
I wonder why they went all the way to Wigan?  Also, I was half  hoping for an RC marriage  Both Ann and Thomas have first born daughters named Elizabeth and I wonder if that's relevant?

I'd be really grateful for any possible clues or connections you may find to other Culley's in the area.

Kit
Rimmer/Appleton/Ashcroft: St Helens, Lancs // Cul(le)y:St Helens & Little Bolton // Stott: Huyton Quarry & Sutton, Lancs
Carson:Belfast? & St Helens // Kelly:Mullingar, West Meath? & St Helens // Ronan: Ferns, Wexford & St Helens // Daley:Oranmore & Athenry, Co Galway //
Cunningham: Heworth, Gateshead & Widnes & St Helens, originating Ireland
Edgar: Bellie, Moray // Anderson: Selkirk // Rutherford: Hobkirk, Roxburghshire //
Stewart: Angus // Watson: Moray & Jamaica // Watt: Cairnie

Offline garstonite

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Re: Ann & Thomas Culley - Are they siblings or am I just desperate?
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 24 April 11 10:13 BST (UK) »
I would have thought that Ann was living in Wigan at the time ?
BTW...that marriage is on

https://www.familysearch.org/search/recordDetails/show?uri=https://api.familysearch.org/records/pal:/MM9.1.r/9QYV-F4H/p4
NOTE the birth year of Thomas ....fits exactly to the census yob...so it does look a likely for your Thomas Culley and Ann from the census - but Ann gives her age as 21 on her marriage cert...so there should be 7 years between them...only 5 on the census....typical woman...knocked a couple of years off her age ...lol

but do I think that this Thomas Culley is the sister of Ann - no , sorry
Anns father a Joiner
Thomas father a Tailor
probably related somewhere along the line...and if you look on a map - Billinge (residence of Thomas and Ann at time of marriage) is in the middle of St Helens and Wigan...so obviously is in the Wigan register district , but not far from St Helens
allan :)
ADDED...I didn`t expect that, didn`t realise it was so near......www.mapquest.co.uk   St Helens to Billinge =  4 miles ...so it just so happens that Billinge comes under Wigan for registry
oakes,liverpool..neston..backford..poulton cum spittal(bebington)middlewich,cheshire......   sacht,helgoland  .......merrick,herefordshire adams,shropshire...tipping..ellis..  jones,garston,liverpool..hartley.dunham massey..barker. salford

Offline garstonite

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Re: Ann & Thomas Culley - Are they siblings or am I just desperate?
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 24 April 11 10:36 BST (UK) »
For the record ....there is no record of
Robert Culley
Robert Cully
Robert Culy
on freebmd.org.uk from 1837 to dec qtr 1840 ...???
what was the official spelling of Roberts surname  on his babtism ?
allan
oakes,liverpool..neston..backford..poulton cum spittal(bebington)middlewich,cheshire......   sacht,helgoland  .......merrick,herefordshire adams,shropshire...tipping..ellis..  jones,garston,liverpool..hartley.dunham massey..barker. salford

Offline KitCarson

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Re: Ann & Thomas Culley - Are they siblings or am I just desperate?
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 24 April 11 11:26 BST (UK) »
Hi Allan

Thanks for your replies.  I have to go out until later today but when I get back I'll try and post the image from the Baptism Record.  If I remember correctly, it was Cully.  As you say, I couldn't find a Civil Registration either.

Do you think that there is a possibility that whomever wrote out the Marriage Cert for Thomas and Ann could have mis-transcribed Joiner to Tailor?  I'll need to try and get sight of the original Marriage Register for the Parish Church at Wigan to check.

Kit
Rimmer/Appleton/Ashcroft: St Helens, Lancs // Cul(le)y:St Helens & Little Bolton // Stott: Huyton Quarry & Sutton, Lancs
Carson:Belfast? & St Helens // Kelly:Mullingar, West Meath? & St Helens // Ronan: Ferns, Wexford & St Helens // Daley:Oranmore & Athenry, Co Galway //
Cunningham: Heworth, Gateshead & Widnes & St Helens, originating Ireland
Edgar: Bellie, Moray // Anderson: Selkirk // Rutherford: Hobkirk, Roxburghshire //
Stewart: Angus // Watson: Moray & Jamaica // Watt: Cairnie


Offline KitCarson

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Re: Ann & Thomas Culley - Are they siblings or am I just desperate?
« Reply #4 on: Monday 25 April 11 16:29 BST (UK) »
Sorry, have had major problems with my scanner and have had to buy a new one  :-[  I'm not too great at scanning and uploading so I hope it works.   This should be the baptism record for Robert Cully(his is the last entry)

Oh well, I did try to cut his entry into another document but that hasn't worked and the whole page is to big to display.  I'll try and work it out and post later  :-X

Success at last  :)

Also, have found the marriage transcript for Thomas and Ann on LOPC and looks as if his father was a Tailor (needn't have forked out for the certificate  >:( but we live and learn)
Marriage: 10 Aug 1840 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Thomas Culley - 28 Stone Mason Bachelor of Billinge Chapel End
Ann Hill - 21 Spinster of Billinge Chapel End
    Groom's Father: William Culley, Tailor
    Bride's Father: Samuel Hill, Collier
    Witness: Joseph Hill, (X); Mary Hall, (X)
    Married by Banns by: Jas. K. Glazebrook Curate
    Register: Marriages 1839 - 1840, Page 245, Entry 490
    Source: LDS Film 1885693

Just found William the Tailor's marriage?
Marriage: 23 Apr 1810 St Wilfrid, Farnworth near Prescot, Lancashire, England
William Culley - Taylor of Farnworth near Prescot
Bettey Young - (X), Spinster of Farnworth near Prescot
    Witness: Thomas Moore; James Anders
    Married by Banns by: William Thompson - Minister
    Register: Marriages 1781 - 1812, Page 144, Entry 2002
    Source: LDS Film 166235 item 4

Have I now just answered my own original question?  I suppose I'm still not the wiser as I don't have either Ann or Thomas's parents in the 1841 census.

Any advice would be welcomed.

Kit
Rimmer/Appleton/Ashcroft: St Helens, Lancs // Cul(le)y:St Helens & Little Bolton // Stott: Huyton Quarry & Sutton, Lancs
Carson:Belfast? & St Helens // Kelly:Mullingar, West Meath? & St Helens // Ronan: Ferns, Wexford & St Helens // Daley:Oranmore & Athenry, Co Galway //
Cunningham: Heworth, Gateshead & Widnes & St Helens, originating Ireland
Edgar: Bellie, Moray // Anderson: Selkirk // Rutherford: Hobkirk, Roxburghshire //
Stewart: Angus // Watson: Moray & Jamaica // Watt: Cairnie