Author Topic: Ancestor granted arms - how or why?  (Read 3230 times)

Offline bean

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Ancestor granted arms - how or why?
« on: Tuesday 26 April 11 11:25 BST (UK) »
Sorry for the slightly muddled subject - couldn't think of a better way to word it!

Is it possible to find out how or why an ancestor was granted arms?
An ancestor is listed as having arms but I can't find any information on his father having arms so I'm assuming ( dangerous I know!) that they were granted to him,late 1700's. Are there any records I can search?

Thanks

Bean

Offline Little Nell

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Re: Ancestor granted arms - how or why?
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 26 April 11 21:48 BST (UK) »
Where is it that you have found that this armigerous ancestor listed? 

Some people do seem to have used arms, but may not have been granted them.  In other words, they may have had no right to use them.

What was the name?

Nell
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Offline bean

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Re: Ancestor granted arms - how or why?
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 27 April 11 08:57 BST (UK) »
His name is James Davies of Moor Court, his arms are my avatar.
I found them listed in the following on Google books -  'The St James Magazine: and heraldic and historical register, volume 2 edited by Sir Edmund Burke'
I was wondering if it was possible to find out how he came to be able to use them. His will contained a clause that James Banks, my ggggf, had to change his name to Davies to inherit within one year - this was achieved by Royal Licence.

Offline Little Nell

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Re: Ancestor granted arms - how or why?
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 27 April 11 21:05 BST (UK) »
Have you checked the General Armoury by Burke?  The problem is that official sources (i.e. the College of Arms) may charge you for searches.  Burke's General Armoury may give an indication, but is generally accepted as having flaws.  This sort of thing tends to be a bit of a minefield.

You should be able to find an online copy of Burke's General Armoury.

Nell
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Offline bean

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Re: Ancestor granted arms - how or why?
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 28 April 11 11:12 BST (UK) »
Thanks for that Little Nell,

Checked Burkes General Armory and found him listed:

Davies (Moor Court co. Hereford; as borne by JAMES DAVIES, Esq., of that place, a magistrate for the county).
Quarterly 1st and 4th, gu. a griffin sergeant or, for DAVIES; 2nd & 3rd, ar. a lion ramp. sa over all a fesse engr. gu. for POWELL. crest a griffin sergeant or.

But also listed is:

Davies (Thicknam, co. Somerset). gu, a griffin sergeant or. crest a griffin as in the arms.


Would this mean that the families may be related?

Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: Ancestor granted arms - how or why?
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 28 April 11 13:45 BST (UK) »
It seems likely that James Davies or one of his heirs married a Powell whose father had the lion as his coat of arms.  At the next generation the two shields were quartered as shown in your avatar.  Originally this would have meant that the wife inherited the arms because there was no male line from her father to inherit.  This however does not always seem to have been the case.

It would not have been unusual for someone who was a county magistrate to have been granted a coat of arms.  He may have applied to the College of Arms to have them granted.
Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
DETAILS OF MY NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE
Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley.
Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse, Stevens, Batchelor
Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline bean

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Re: Ancestor granted arms - how or why?
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 28 April 11 14:10 BST (UK) »
William Davies, the father of James, married Esther Powell of the Powells of Glyntarell. Her brother died before her without an heir so I assume that she inherited the arms that way.

Looks like my next avenue of research is with the college of arms then.

Quick thought - if James inherited the arms from his father would it be mentioned in his fathers will?

Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: Ancestor granted arms - how or why?
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 28 April 11 15:32 BST (UK) »
There is no reason why the arms should be mentioned in a will.  The person who dies has no control on how they are passed on.  There are standard rules as to how they are inherited, usually by the eldest son, but it can be much more complicated if the direct male line does not survive the bearer.
Living in Berkshire from Northampton & Milton Keynes
DETAILS OF MY NAMES ARE IN SURNAME INTERESTS, LINK AT FOOT OF PAGE
Wilson, Higgs, Buswell, PARCELL, Matthews, TAMKIN, Seckington, Pates, Coupland, Webb, Arthur, MAYNARD, Caves, Norman, Winch, Culverhouse, Drakeley.
Johnson, Routledge, SHIRT, SAICH, Mills, SAUNDERS, EDLIN, Perry, Vickers, Pakeman, Griffiths, Marston, Turner, Child, Sheen, Gray, Woolhouse, Stevens, Batchelor
Census Info is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk