Cavers Minto Wilton Hawick I--

[janeli_1]

I am looking for information from someone who is familiar with IGI, Scotlands People as well as Roxburgh County.   A bonus would be someone related to the Irvine family,

In the 1950's an Uncle of mine did a lot of research and identified my 6x great grandfather as Thomas Irvine born (IGI says 1675), lived at Whitlaugh and died 1758 Whitlaugh.   He has Thomas with one wife (unknown) and 15 children.  The information I have for the birth dates of the 15 children matches IGI almost perfectly.  One child, Adam, is born Dec 15 1724 in my notes and IGI has Jan 15, 1724.  IGI has Thomas married twice.  First wife (unknown)m abt 1700, 8 children, 2nd wife (Jean Irving) m about 1716.  With the exception of Thomas' birthplace being unknown (except IGI, Hawick), all other events are in Hawick.  Irvine is usually spelled Irwine but occasionally Irwin.

I decided I wanted the records from Scotlands people if at all possible.  I like to verify whenever possible as human mistakes do appear on IGI. 

Scotlandspeople
I have a marriage record for a Thomas Irwin and a Bessie Huntly on 14 July 1700 in Cavers.  I have the first 6 children baptised in Cavers. (The first birth is 9 months after marriage date).  Names match and baptisms are generally within a couple of weeks of birth on IGI and in my notes.   
The next 2 children are baptised in Minto and they are twins in all records.  One difference is Elizabeth IGI is Bessie scotlandspeople.  I am guessing mother didn't survive long after birth of the twins and perhaps twins died as well.
Next I have a marriage record for a Thomas Irwine and a Jean Irwine (Jean Irving on IGI m about 1716), married in Minto 30 Jan 1717.  Their first child was born 10 months later.  Their first 4 children were baptised in Minto and the last 3 were baptised in Wilton.  The 2nd last child I have born as Jane and baptised as Jean but I doubt that is a problem.
I have nothing on the death of Samuel b 1719 Minto but IGI has him buried 1803 in Cavers Churchyard, Hawick.  Is that even possible?

My questions:  Where did my information from the1950's and IGI information come from if not Scotlandspeople.   I printed a map of Roburghshire so can see the parishes mentioned border each other.  Would moving from Cavers to Monto to Wilton be a big deal in the early 1700's?  Do the names Whitlaugh, Newton, Pundershaw, Northhouse or Neufield mean anything to anyone?  Names of farms perhaps! 
I have the twins born April 4 1715 (my notes and IGI) and baptised April 1 (scotlandspeople).  It seems reasonable to me that the birth date got confused as April is the 4th month.  If the infants died at birth would they have been baptised at that time?  Born, baptised and possibly died April 1st?

Am I stretching it to believe I have the correct marriage dates and names?  Sure would be nice to add them to my tree.  Thomas was supposed to be born abt 1675 according to old IGI but I have since found a birth (new IGI) of a Thomas in Hawick Aug 3 1673.  So far nothing on Scotlandspeople.   

Is it remotely possible to have a Cavers Churchyard in Hawick???

If anyone can help me understand sources of info for IGI and distances between parishes I would appreciate it.

Thanks 

Jan

[MonicaL]

Hi Jan

I think one of the main things that is tripping you up here is that a number of the entries you are seeing on IGI are LDS member submitted (see 'messages' section at the bottom of each entry that you view). Member submitted IGI entries can be simply wrong and you should always verify through another source, which is exactly what you are doing now in trying to identify the corresponding entries on Scotlands People.

How have the Thomases who married in 1700 (Bessie) and then c.1716/7 (Jane) been connected to being the same person? Just curious!

Have you checked to see what monumental inscriptions may be available either at local libraries or through family history groups? This for example may be the source for some of the burial data you are seeing - hard to know until you are able to check.

Monica 

Added: Is this a good summary of what you have been working from http://www.clanirving.com/pdfs/Descendant%20Chart%20for%20the%20Irvines%20of%20Hawick,%20Glasgow%20and%20New%20York%20USA.pdf

[janeli_1]

Hi Jan

I think one of the main things that is tripping you up here is that a number of the entries you are seeing on IGI are LDS member submitted (see 'messages' section at the bottom of each entry that you view). Member submitted IGI entries can be simply wrong and you should always verify through another source, which is exactly what you are doing now in trying to identify the corresponding entries on Scotlands People.

How have the Thomases who married in 1700 (Bessie) and then c.1716/7 (Jane) been connected to being the same person? Just curious!

Have you checked to see what monumental inscriptions may be available either at local libraries or through family history groups? This for example may be the source for some of the burial data you are seeing - hard to know until you are able to check.

Monica 

Added: Is this a good summary of what you have been working from http://www.clanirving.com/pdfs/Descendant%20Chart%20for%20the%20Irvines%20of%20Hawick,%20Glasgow%20and%20New%20York%20USA.pdf

Thanks for your response.
My uncle, several decades ago, had Thomas with the same 15 children as I now find with 2 wives.  The names match as do the dates so it seems he had 2 wives ........... I can't imagine giving birth 15 times!  My uncle had no wives' names at all so didn't think about 1 or 2.   With the names and dates an exact match I know he had 2 wives.   
As for the names of his wives, I am simply going by what seems reasonable.   Since both marriages precede a child by about 9-10 months, it seems likely I have the right people.  I have searched scotlandspeople over a wide range of dates with Irvine, Irvin, Irwine, and Irwin in Roxburghshire.  I recognize that I may never be able to prove  ............ it just seems highly reasonable. 
I am aware that IGI entries have the human factor and I have easily proved some wrong but I also find them invaluable ....... often proved correct or just simply give a great starting point.  I have certainly made errors and had to correct them.   The IGI entires seem to be birth dates for the first 8 children and match what my uncle found.  Since the baptisms follow immediately according to scotlandspeople I believe I have the correct birth and baptism dates.  What I am wondering is just how complete is scotlandspeople ........... still adding?

I live in Canada so some things are harder for me to verify.  Thomas had two grandchildren (one from each wife) who married.  I have 1st cousins married in all the trees I work on.  Their son moved to Canada in 1842 so those early UK census records don't help much!

Is it quite simply to travel from Cavers to Minto to Wilton?   Our counties divide into townships which probably are similar to your parishes although I suspect the parishes are smaller.   

I will have a good look at the links you sent.  I do appreciate your time, Monica!

I will let you know how I get along (I am slow at links!)

Jan 

[MonicaL]

It may be that the original images of the children's christenings on SP also include their birth day and this is the source of the birth dates that have been member submitted on IGI?

Monica

[janeli_1]

Hi,
Interesting thought.  Too bad some images were removed.  I know sometimes I find both  on one image.
Fun to hunt though!
Jan

[janeli_1]

Added: Is this a good summary of what you have been working from http://www.clanirving.com/pdfs/Descendant%20Chart%20for%20the%20Irvines%20of%20Hawick,%20Glasgow%20and%20New%20York%20USA.pdf

Wow!  I'd say my uncle got his information from this source or they both got info from the same source.   This has the info re buried at Cavers Churchyard and has twin girls born Apr 4 1715 even though I have christening Apr 1.  I wonder where the original information was found?
This gave me more information on a couple of other branches and I will have great fun verifying!

Thanks

Jan

[epfedin]

Jan

Moving between the parishes of Cavers, Minto and Wilton wouldn't be all that difficult as they do border on each other.  There are 2 burial grounds in Cavers - Old Cavers Parish Church which is now a private house and new Cavers Parish Church.  Wilton is in Hawick.

Have a look at the NLS website http://maps.nls.uk/os  - maybe the best map to start with is the Ordnance Survey Maps One-inch 2nd edition, Scotland, 1898-1904 (Sheet 17 Jedburgh) which has the parishes coloured.  There is Whitehaugh and a Newton in Hawick parish. There's a North House in the parish of Teviothead, a bit further southwest of Hawick and a Pundershaw in Northumberland - It is possible that they worked further afield. 

Have a look at the Borders Family History website - there is an online index of MI surnames for Cavers.  BFHS are currently working on Minto. 

Elma

[janeli_1]

Jan

Moving between the parishes of Cavers, Minto and Wilton wouldn't be all that difficult as they do border on each other.  There are 2 burial grounds in Cavers - Old Cavers Parish Church which is now a private house and new Cavers Parish Church.  Wilton is in Hawick.

Have a look at the NLS website http://maps.nls.uk/os  - maybe the best map to start with is the Ordnance Survey Maps One-inch 2nd edition, Scotland, 1898-1904 (Sheet 17 Jedburgh) which has the parishes coloured.  There is Whitehaugh and a Newton in Hawick parish. There's a North House in the parish of Teviothead, a bit further southwest of Hawick and a Pundershaw in Northumberland - It is possible that they worked further afield. 

Have a look at the Borders Family History website - there is an online index of MI surnames for Cavers.  BFHS are currently working on Minto. 

Elma

Thanks, Elma,  this has been helpful.  I figured the parishes were likely close together.   I sometimes find 100 years or more where a family barely moves form a village but this family must have been somewhat itinerant. 
Thanks for helping with things like "Pundershaw".  I will have a look at websites you have suggested as well.  the maps should be helpful as Google gives way too many options!    I think I have looked at the MI surnames for Cavers but will look again.  Good to know about Minto!
I appreciate your time.  It is hard working from Canada with minimal knowledge of UK (my husband and I did visit in 1973 but I wasn't as into family trees then!)
Thanks!
Jan

[timely]

Hi Jan, I am doing some research on the Irvings and came across this message.  I just uploaded some old family documents today that I think you will find useful.  They are contained in a book that was compiled in 1944 by Fannie Irvin.  As its basis, she used the notes dictated to her by her father, William Irvin, in 1908 along with diaries, family letters, and other references.  You can download it here: http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/27245824/person/13866684097/media/1?pgnum=1&pg=32817%2c0&pgpl=pid%2cpid%7cpgNum .  The pages are sideways in Adobe Reader, but you can click "view" then "rotate view" to be able to read them.

I am stuck at Thomas Irvine (1675-1738) and Jean Irving, who was supposedly the daughter of the Laird of Bonshaw, though I can find no evidence of this.  My husband (who is descended from the Irvins) is visiting Scotland this week.  He is planning a trip out to Bonshaw Tower, and that's what got me started looking more into this.  I wish I could find something he could look for there to identify Jean and to learn who Thomas' parents were!  My husband is descended from Thomas & Jean's son, Samuel Irvin.

Your initial post did give me some info I did not have, so I am going to get busy trying to plug your data in with mine.  My family tree on Ancestry.com is "Perkins Family Tree".

Leigh Ann